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Every year, millions of people join a gym. And, every year, somewhere between 2-6 months after joining, millions of people stop going to the gym.

And while this is arguably a boon to the people who own gyms, it isn’t good news for those of us seeking a healthier lifestyle.

Change—whether it’s a change in your waistline or your net worth—takes time, and it takes effort. It takes both.

If you hit the gym today and work out as hard as you can until you collapse… you won’t wake up much healthier tomorrow (quite the opposite).

And if you just dutifully pay your gym fees for ten years, you won’t wake up a decade from now and discover yourself an athlete.

No. If you want to change something, you’ll have to put in the reps, perhaps for years. How do you know if you’re up for that? How do you get yourself to be up for it?

Let’s talk about what it takes to pursue a change for as long as it takes to see results.

Links and Resources Mentioned
Episode Transcript

Note: This transcript of the episode was machine-generated and has not been edited for correctness. It’s provided for your convenience when searching. Please excuse any errors.

Ben: [00:00:00] Low execution. High patients is also pretty bad. Like you’ve got a lot of patients, but you’re still not doing anything. You’re just not taking the action necessary. You can spend years of your life fooling yourself into thinking that you’ve been taking the appropriate amount of action. Fooling yourself into thinking, I’m an entrepreneur, or I’m building a business, or whatever it is.

Good morning, Dan.

Dan: [00:00:39] Good morning, Ben, how are you today?

Ben: [00:00:41] You know, to be honest, and I’m feeling a little bit disappointed.

Dan: [00:00:46] I’m sorry to hear that

Ben: [00:00:47] Yeah, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll tell you why. We’ve been behind the scenes of the Sean West podcast. I say we met.

Dan: [00:00:55] he’s airing all our dirty laundry.

Ben: [00:00:57] Yeah. I have been really wanting to be able to, capture and stream. Live video we’re doing, we’re doing a video call right now, and that’s how Dan and I are communicating across the airwaves.

It’s not just audio, but we can actually see one another, which is super cool. And you know, like  the quality of my shot is really excellent. The quality of Dan’s shot is okay. And, and it’d be really great for. Us to be able to not only give you this experience in audio form, but also video. And you can see our, you know, like the emotions on our face and our hand gestures.

And, you know, like sometimes I like to illustrate things a certain, you know, like there are things that you just, you miss out on a little bit if you don’t have that video experience. So I’m, I’m really pushing and, And I was, I was making what I thought was a great stride today and then I made it, I made a mistake.

I forgot about some, you know, thing that I needed to start doing, but I thought it was the stream interrupting. I thought it was the video stream interrupting. Anyways, long story.

Dan: [00:02:11] Your greatest challenge will be turning this somehow into the topic of today’s show.

Ben: [00:02:16] So I’m getting there. Long story short. I figured out what the mistake was, but now we’re in the pre show, right? And I’m like, Dan, I think I can. I think I can get this up and running again. And he says, no, it’s too late.

Dan: [00:02:31] I did say that

Ben: [00:02:33] He says, it’s, it’s too late.

Dan: [00:02:35] it was, it was too late.

Ben: [00:02:39] so I count today really as, as a setback on my journey to delivering video. To you, the listener. Mmm. So I’m, I’m sorry, I, I did my best, but in the end, Dan one and, and the whole thing, now I’m just getting Dan’s,

Dan: [00:03:00] the important, the important lesson here is the Dan one. So Ben, you, you had a setback in terms of your execution, right? But I think the question is, do you have the patience to keep going?

Ben: [00:03:13] well, I’m, I’m running out of patience is the thing.

Dan: [00:03:15] Huh?

Ben: [00:03:17] I F I feel like I’ve, I feel like I’ve been patient for so long waiting for this to happen. I, I feel like we’ve been talking about making this happen forever and, and like, you know, taking incremental steps. Just the, the little tiniest things like waiting for you to get your webcam and waiting for me to get.

Just, you know, like little bits and pieces here and there and it’s, it’s just not happened yet. And I’m like, how much longer do I have to wait? I’m getting impatient. And, and I think a lot of us feel that way about various things

Dan: [00:03:58] We feel impatient,

the things that we want to do, they’re just not producing results as quickly as we hoped they would. Is that the problem?

Ben: [00:04:08] yeah.

Dan: [00:04:09] Mm mm.

Ben: [00:04:11] That’s, that’s the problem. I think that’s what a lot of us are experiencing. We, we are putting forth some effort,

some degree of effort, some maybe more than others, but the real tangible meaning I would use the word meaningful results, sometimes take a lot longer. Then we feel like they should, and as, as well as I know that that’s usually the case.

It’s still really hard not to feel disappointed and frustrated when you feel like you’ve been patient for a long time and still the thing that you’re wanting to see happen isn’t quite there yet.

Dan: [00:05:02] That’s true. That’s true. It’s really hard.

Ben: [00:05:04] But that’s what we’re talking about today.

Dan: [00:05:07] We are. Yeah. We, and the thing is the, the title for this episode, Ben, so this was one of yours, I believe. the title is patients versus execution. And I think that versus is interesting. I’d like to, I’d like to hear your, your thesis on this is, is how are patients and execution in opposition to one another.

Ben: [00:05:27] Yeah. So they. They’re, they’re really not. I was, I was actually having a discussion with Rachel Mmm. This morning. And, and I was talking to her about the title of the episode, and it’s, and, and she, you know, she got it right away. She was like, well, you can be patient and at the same time be executing. And I was like, yeah, that’s, that’s exactly the thing.

But Mmm. But I wanna I want to make sure, and I think what I was, what I was thinking is this message of be patient. You know, like we’ve, we’re starting to hear that more. You gotta be patient. Mmm. It’s not a, it’s not a broad stroke piece of advice that you should apply to every single part of your process for bringing something to fruition.

And, and so execution.  and I actually, I’ll, I’ll go ahead and read what I have here as the definitions of these two words. We like to do that. It’s, that’s fun. So patients, the capacity to accept or tolerate delay, trouble or suffering without getting angry or upset. So, so the Dell, like the ability to, the capacity to accept or tolerate delay and, and that word delay there is the key.

It’s, and, and it’s not, it’s not the delay of you actually doing something like, you know, I, I don’t, I don’t know if maybe somebody hears that advice be patient and they think to themselves, okay, so. Like, I should wait until I feel ready and have all of the information I need, or like I’ve got the perfect version of whatever it is I’m trying to create, already crafted in my mind.

I should be patient and wait for that. I, that’s, that’s not where the advice is going. And so then this idea of execution really is about taking action. It’s about not being patient, and that’s where I think they’re kind of posed. But instead of it being patients versus execution, really  execution with patients.

That’s where the power is. And so here’s, here’s the definition for execution. The carrying out of a sentence of death on a condemned person.

Dan: [00:08:01] Wait

Ben: [00:08:02] Oh, sorry. I read the wrong, hold on.

Dan: [00:08:05] Ben.

Ben: [00:08:05] wrong one. The carrying out or putting into effect of a plan. Order or course of action, the carrying out or putting into effect

Dan: [00:08:17] In other words, the doing of a thing.

Ben: [00:08:19] right.

Dan: [00:08:20] You know, what occurred to me while I was thinking about this patients versus execution, the thing and, and, and that really, you know, maybe, ah, maybe we’re, we’re setting up a false contest, right? Or it’s a trick question because it’s like, which one do you need patients or execution?

Another, I think a, a way to look at this as patients is a character trait. Some people tend to be better at patients. Than others. So you can learn to be more patient over time. So how about this patients is the character trait that you have to cultivate in order to behave consistently, like in order to execute.

Ben: [00:08:59] Yeah. So, so patients is kind of a prerequisite in some ways for consistent execution. And not that not the patients is the only quality that unlocks your ability to execute consistently, but it, it definitely is necessary.

Dan: [00:09:17] Yes. And I’ll go back to your point before about, you know, the two ways to look at it. It’s not patients with, well, we’re, we’re going to touch on something that, that in a little while that, yeah, kind of explains this, but it’s not so much like patience with yourself. Like, well, I’ll wait along time to, to actually take action.

It’s patients. With the results. It’s, it’s patients for the fact that you can do something for a long time without seeing results, but that doesn’t mean that you should stop doing it.

Ben: [00:09:49] So I had this, I had the story I wanted to share one of the, one of the first kind of metaphors that came to me when I was thinking about this concept of patients versus execution was driving. And so, like in, in a lot of ways, w when you’re taking a long road trip, for example, execution is. There’s all the, there’s all the planning and prep, like you’re packing whatever you need for your trip.

Make sure that the tank is full. You, you know, get an oil change. If you need to do that before you check your tires. Like these are all things that are necessary to do, but those things do not get you further down the road. They, they are not. They are not the things that actually put miles on the odometer.

It’s, it’s really when you finally, you know, push your foot down on the gas pedal that you start moving in a direction. And you know, with, with cars, I don’t, I don’t know if somebody listening to this in the future and cars can travel at 300 miles per hour or something like that, but.  we’re stuck at like 60 or 70 at best.

That’s the fastest we go. And driving over hundreds of miles takes hours and so there’s a level of patience, you know, that’s required. So, so I felt like that was a pretty good metaphor. Like pudding pudding, pushing the pedal down on the, I’m sorry, pushing your foot down on the gas pedal.  holding it there doesn’t, it doesn’t take a lot of effort, but it also feels like kind of a small action, you know?

And, and over the course of an hour, like maybe you, you drive 60 or 70 miles, that doesn’t feel like a big chunk when you’ve got hundreds of miles to go. But over time, those things add up and you have to exercise. Patients. Otherwise you just, you know, like frustrated the whole time getting there. Mmm. So I th I thought of this, I thought of this trip that we take, we’ve gone to, to Florida for different reasons.

Sometimes to go to Disneyworld, sometimes to visit Rachel’s family who lives in Florida. I went to college there and the times that we’ve road tripped. It’s a pretty, it’s a relatively long track. I mean, just getting out of Texas takes a long time.

Dan: [00:12:36] Yeah. There’s a lot of Texas.

Ben: [00:12:38] Yeah. It’s like half the trip. There’s this, there’s this bridge in Louisiana that goes over the marshlands and it’s 18.2 miles long, which really that’s, that’s not a long distance, but for a bridge.

Dan: [00:12:54] a bridge that’s pretty long.

Ben: [00:12:56] Yeah, and I don’t know if you can see it in the notes. Stan, do you want to try to, do you want to attempt two?

Dan: [00:13:02] I can see everything in the notes.

Ben: [00:13:04] Yeah. You want to attempt to read the name of the bridge?

Dan: [00:13:07] Oh, this, you’re really throwing me under the bus with this one, Ben?

Ben: [00:13:11] No, I, I want to see if he can read it.

Just give it a, give it a give it a go.

Dan: [00:13:17] Sure. I can read anything. Let’s see. It’s the the Atchafalaya basin bridge.

Ben: [00:13:26] That was really close. That was really close. Atchafalaya.

Dan: [00:13:30] Ah, Oh, like jumble. I.

Ben: [00:13:33] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s in Louisiana, so Atchafalaya basin bridge 18.2 miles long and it’s, it’s stretches like that. And then there’s another stretch where,

it seems like you’re, you’re just driving through like pine trees forever and there’s like, it’s just a long string of pine trees and billboards for casinos.

Mmm. They’re, they’re just stretches like that throughout the trip that feel, even, even though they’re relatively short, they just feel like they take forever.

Dan: [00:14:10] I believe the word for this is interminable.

Ben: [00:14:13] That that I feel like is kind of the experience that we have when we’re in the middle of it. So, so I feel like we’re talking to people in a couple of different places. Maybe you haven’t gotten started yet, like you haven’t even started executing because you’re stuck in the planning. Like you’re, you’re stuck.

You’re, you’re still trying to decide like what you need to bring for your trip. You’re driving around trying to find the cheapest gas station, you’re, Oh gosh, I don’t know. So when I need to fill my tires up, I S I really need to buy an air compressor. I like, I just need to get one because like when it gets cold  the air pressure in my tires drop and I have to find a gas station with one of those air things.

but it can’t just be like, I’ll drive to one and Oh good. It’s got, it’s got an air pump. Oh. But it only takes quarters. I don’t carry cash who carries cash? So I find one that takes credit cards. Okay. That’s awesome. Oh, it’s out of order. Like. None of these things are helping me actually get started. So you might, you might be there, or you might be on the middle of the Atchafalaya basin bridge feeling like this is taking forever.

Dan: [00:15:36] I didn’t, I mean, I didn’t expect to get auto tips. on the show today, but I’m glad that I did it. So I’m, I’m giving you a hard time, Ben, and I apologize. I’m mostly just doing it for my own amusement, but it’s, you know, you’re rolling out a good metaphor here that I think we’re, we want to apply to.

Ben: [00:15:56] Pun intended.

Dan: [00:15:58] Yes, of course.

Pun, pun always intended. Ben. that might be a sound bite. Yeah. It’s the sorts of things we’re talking about today. We’re talking about like big changes you want to make or big goals you want to accomplish, right? And, and it’s no surprise, it’s no coincidence that we’re doing this episode near the beginning of the year because the beginning, the beginning of the year is when a lot of us say, I’m going to finally lose those 20 pounds, or I’m going to finally gain those 20 pounds of muscle, or I’m going to run a marathon, or I’m going to write a book.

I’m going to. Be nicer to my friends. I don’t know, something, you know, just anything that we want to change.

Ben: [00:16:36] It’s going to happen this time.

Dan: [00:16:37] Finally, it’s about time, but all of these big changes, they take time. They’d probably take more time than we think that they will, and they, they take a lot of encountering the same setbacks over and over and over again.

And yet proceeding over them. Anyway, so, so Ben, you put something in the notes here about gyms, and I think this is the next big, you know, to take it from a long boring road trip to something else that I think a lot of people find they struggle with in this regard. T tell me, tell me the stats. Tell me the stats on gym memberships.

Ben: [00:17:16] Yeah. So this is, this is probably, Mmm.  and I’ll just, I’ll preface this with, I, I looked this up and I found these statistics on a couple of websites, so, Mmm. They may just be referencing one another. And so I don’t, I can’t vouch for the. 100% accuracy of these statistics, but it sounds, it sounds right.

Dan: [00:17:44] Yes. Like everything on the internet. All we really need is that they confirm for us what we already believe, so we’re good to go.

Ben: [00:17:51] Yeah. So, but, but I think as, as I read them, you’ll probably say, you know, that like, that may or may not be the exact number, but I would be surprised if it wasn’t somewhere in that ballpark. Except for this first one. This first one just seems completely, it says, American spend 1.8 billion with a B,

Dan: [00:18:14] Yeah.

Ben: [00:18:15] an unused gym memberships every year.

Dan: [00:18:19] Every year. Wow.

Well, I mean, how much is a gym membership? Like 50 bucks a month on average? Maybe.

Ben: [00:18:28] Yeah. That’s just seems like a lot. but. So, so I don’t know about that specific number, but

Dan: [00:18:35] Well, that’s 3 million, 3 million people with unused gym memberships. I believe that, to be honest, in a nation of 300 million people. Sure.

Ben: [00:18:44] yeah. So I do know that a lot of people sign up for and pay for gym memberships that they just don’t use.

Dan: [00:18:53] That’s all right. That’s what keeps gyms in business pen.

Ben: [00:18:56] That’s right. 12% of new members. Every year join in the month of January.

Dan: [00:19:05] Oh, I honestly would have thought it might even be more than that, but I suppose that’s still, that’s still a lot compared to all the rest of the months in the year.

Ben: [00:19:13] Right? I would would’ve thought it was a little bit more, but, 80% of those quit within the first five months, but five months is actually like you can, you can start to see results within. Meaning you can actually start to see results within like six to eight weeks if you’re

Dan: [00:19:33] If you’re well, that’s the thing is I think people quit after five months because that’s when the fact that they haven’t been going to the gym for four months finally smacks them in the face.

Ben: [00:19:43] yeah. And then it took them a month to finally get around to canceling.

Dan: [00:19:46] That’s right, yes.

Ben: [00:19:49] and then 14, 14% quit before the end of February. So that’s, that’s like still within the window of like. Maybe, maybe this is working, maybe this isn’t. And, and so this is,

this is I think where we’re, a lot of people, when they’re going after a big goal or they’re trying to produce a bigger result.

Mmm. A lot of, a lot of what I think happens is this, I haven’t seen results yet. I F I feel tired or. Like, you know, like I’ve been, I’ve been paying for this domain for five years and I haven’t, you know, this web domain for five years and I’ve never built a website for it.

Dan: [00:20:36] why would you call me out like that?

Ben: [00:20:39] Sorry, Dan.

Dan: [00:20:40] I don’t, no one. No one gets to see my hover.com account. Okay. I just, I can’t do it.

Ben: [00:20:45] I’ve been paying for this online service. I’ve been, I’ve been paying for this convert kit account and I haven’t sent a single newsletter.

Dan: [00:20:55] Stop it. It’s too real.

Ben: [00:20:57] So,

Dan: [00:20:58] It’s too real.

Ben: [00:21:00] yeah, I think, I think a lot of people, they, they just stop before they’ve really given them selves a fair shake at seeing results. and, and I guess in those examples, so let’s say, ah, let’s say you did sign up for convert kit and.

Maybe I don’t, I don’t know. I know they have a free plan, but I think they have a free plan. actually I think they just added a free plan anyways. This is not a convert kit commercial, so, so you sign up for some service that you’re paying for to build an email list and you’re sending out newsletters and you have three subscribers, and then the next month you got six subscribers, and then the month after that you got.

24 subscribers or something, you know, like that feels excrutiatingly slow. And 12 months in when you’ve only got 125 people signed up for your mailing list and your, you know, your buddy has 10,000 or this person that you look up to and follow has a million people subscribed to their email list and you’re like 125 people is like, it’s nothing.

And we’re going to have, you know, like we have talked about, and we will talk about again, this idea of perspective and how it’s really like that those early times are great times because you can really pour yourself into people and create super fans, but, but let’s say like that’s what you’ve got in your mind.

Like, I want to get to a million subscribers in 125 is barely a drop in the bucket. A year in and you say, this isn’t worth it, and what’s what’s really happening? Like I, I get that. I, I, and I totally understand the feeling of disappointment. I know what it takes to put in a year’s worth of honest, hard work and not see the kind of results that you had hoped to see.

But you’re still even, even one year in, you’re so early in the game, it’s way, way too early to quit in that specific instance.

Dan: [00:23:27] Well there, there’s a, there’s a couple of important ways that the person in your example, and it’s a great example cause like I’ve been there, you’ve been there, I’ve, I bet a lot of people listening have been there, if not . Then email lists. Then with something similar social media account, you don’t have as many followers as you wanted.

there’s a couple of problems with the thought process that you described, you know, and, and one of them is in the first month, your email list only has three people, and in the second month it only has six people. And in the third month it only has 24 people. Well, that’s, that’s intolerable because three and six and 24 are extremely small numbers.

But that’s the wrong way to look at it. The right way to look at it is in the first month, you doubled your subscriber base. In the second month, you quadrupled it. That’s incredible growth. But you’re, but you’re not seeing that growth because all you’re thinking about is the absolute numbers. And so this leads to the second problem in our thinking, which is where we compare ourselves to the world around us, right?

And so. Ben, you, we had started talking in the pre show about something and it seemed like it was unrelated, except it turns out, I think, I think it is related. We were talking about how when people are making a movie, a lot of the times the things you hear in a given scene, those sounds were actually recorded somewhere else and added in after the fact.

So like if someone is, you know, walking through grass for example. The, you know, the, the camera person caught the, caught the shot, the footage of the person walking through the grass. But the sound that you hear when they’re walking through the grass is probably not the actual audio waves that reached the microphone as that shot was being filmed.

It’s probably the sound of someone walking through grass captured under different, more ideal circumstances some other time and then edit it in later. The point being, the thing you see misleads you about how it came to be when you’re watching a movie. Unless you know how the sausage is made, you’re not thinking, I wonder where they recorded the audio in the scene.

You just assume that it was recorded as the scene was being filmed. Right. And so similarly, when you look at a person who has half a million email subscribers, you just assume that they got those email subscribers in some arbitrarily small amount of time. After all, you only found about them a year ago.

That must mean that it’s reasonable to have half a million subscribers in a year. You don’t know that they’ve been doing this for 10 years. For example.

Ben: [00:26:09] Yeah. You don’t, you don’t know how they made their sausage.

Dan: [00:26:12] No, exactly. Well, and, you know, the health, just to touch on the gym thing again, I mean, there are so many unrealistic. Images that we see of people’s health. For example, you’ve got the way that everybody looks in movies nowadays. You’ve got every magazine cover and leave things like air brushing out of it.

I think an important realization to make, if you’re looking at actors and actresses, for example, in the kind of physical shape they’re in in the latest Avengers movie and thinking to yourself, I wish I looked like that. Realize that a gym membership is not going to get you there. Like. It’s literally those people’s job to rearrange their entire lifestyle for a year or more to develop a body that looks that way.

Ben: [00:26:57] And it’s not just, it’s not just their job, it’s their personal trainers job. It’s their nutritionists job. So they’re life coaches, like they have a whole team of people.

Dan: [00:27:07] This is the thing. So this like, I think a big problem with, with. Not having the patients is frankly not having a realistic goal in the first place. Realistic. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t like aspire to say, you know, look like captain America or have a million email list subscribers, but realize that if you have, if you have a goal that’s very out of the ordinary, you probably don’t know exactly what it’s going to take.

For starters, the first step is. Develop a realistic picture of what it, what is required. If what is required is extremely difficult, you can still do it, but at least you know that’s going to set you on the stage for realizing this might be more of a 10 year journey than a one year, or I might need to invest a hundred X what I thought I would have to into this.

Ben: [00:27:59] So I think, I think that perspective is. I think that perspective is valuable and I think it’s an important component of cultivating patients, but I think it’s secondary to something else that we’ll get into later in the show. I wanted to talk about. So, so I think like in this first example, this is really a problem, patience and.

In this next example, we’re going to be talking about a problem of execution and, or a lack of real execution.

Dan: [00:28:40] So wait, Ben, you’re, you’re saying, you’re saying you’re going to talk. But execution. But we’re going to come back to patients. So for the listeners, you’re going to have to be patients to find out what, what you need to be patient,

Ben: [00:28:53] That’s correct.

Dan: [00:28:55] what the paradox. Ben

Ben: [00:28:57] So fast forward to the end of the show

and then you’ll have it and then come back to this point.

Dan: [00:29:04] so tell me about what, what’s the problem with execution.

Ben: [00:29:08] So some people deceive themselves into thinking they’ve been consistent.

Dan: [00:29:13] Hmm.

Ben: [00:29:14] And this is, this is something that, like I’ve, I’ve fallen into this trap before, but if you really take a hard look at. How you were spending your time, the, the amount of action you’re really taking. it, it would tell a different story.

And so I think sometimes, sometimes when we, when we arrive at a certain point, you know, let’s, let’s say you do have the proper idea of how long something should take. Like, yeah, it’s, if I’m going to start a business. It’s going to be five years before the business is like really profitable and humming along.

So, so like you have that in your head and you’ve been building your business. I’m doing air quotes now. You’ve been building your business for five years and you get to the five year Mark and you’re still just struggling. You’re still working your full time job and trying to build it on the side and, and things just aren’t happening.

And that’s disappointing. And, and also like if you haven’t been taking, if you, if you haven’t been doing the things that you should be doing, two, gain momentum and to get traction, that’s that feeling of disappointment in yourself. Can be really strong and uncomfortable. And I think sometimes what we do, even subconsciously as we, we look back and we kind of like make up this idea, this version of our history in which we were doing the things that we said we were going to do.

We were taking action in the way that we said we were going to take action. But if you really looked at it, you weren’t so like. You know, I’ve been trying to grow my YouTube channel for five years, and I’ve got, and, and I’m talking about me, like this isn’t just an example. I’ve got 250 subscribers, which is, you know, that’s a lot of people, but it’s not 250,000 and, and I’ve been at this for five years, but when I say I’ve been at this for five years, if you actually look at my upload history.

I might average 12 videos a month, but it’s like three in one month and then for the next two or three months I didn’t do anything. And then maybe I uploaded another one and I haven’t been interacting with comments and I wasn’t trying to make really compelling thumbnails and titles like I wasn’t, I was, again, air quotes trying to grow my YouTube channel.

But I wasn’t actually taking the necessary action to get the result that I wanted. And so I think, I think some people are there too and need to be honest with themselves and deal with that discomfort. Take responsibility for where you are and yeah, you know, like things happen that are outside of your control.

But. But I think it’s always a good idea too. Take some time to be introspective and ask, you know what? What did I say I was gonna do? Like what did I know it was going to take that I didn’t execute on? And that that question I think can, can help you get a more realistic idea of why you are where you are.

And put you on track with what it’s going to take to see the result that you want.

Dan: [00:33:13] Yeah. There. Well, there’s, I feel like there’s two versions of that. One of them is you, you know what it takes, but you’re not really doing it. And the other one is you thought you knew what it took, but you were wrong, which is, you know, perfectly natural too. Go into something and try it and then find out that you were mistaken.

And the, I think that, you know, the people that are people that are successful at things. Some of them might fit, might get everything right the first time, like for like from the get go, they might go, ah, I see what it’ll take to be successful here. And then they do it. But I suspect for most people, you, you have some hypothesis about what it takes to get successful on YouTube.

So you start doing a thing and then if it. Is not yielding the results you wanted. You start looking into why and you start looking into alternative things you could do. What are other things you could try? But the point is that you don’t stop the action. You don’t stop the trying, you know, you don’t just go, well, I only have 125 subscribers, so now I’m going to stop sending email newsletters because you know, that guarantees that your list won’t grow.

Ben: [00:34:18] Yeah. And this, this is the thing, like there’s, there’s a list of things that kind of disguise themselves as action and we’ll get into, we’ll get into those, but planning is one of those big ones that’s like, okay, I’m trying to try to figure out what it’s going to take. Like doing. Doing your research and that kind of thing.

Not that, not that that’s not important. Not that it’s not important to pack your bags for a trip and make sure you fill up the tank and like all of those things. But again, those things aren’t taking action. And, and there’s this kind of, like with, with producing and uploading videos consistently, it is better for you to spend a year.

Developing the habit of doing that consistently. While you have no idea what you’re doing. Like you’re doing a terrible job with your thumbnails, your titles suck. You’re not putting your the proper tags in like you just, your, your videos aren’t really that engaging. Like it’s, it’s terrible. You shouldn’t be like, by all measures, you shouldn’t be growing.

But it’s better for you to do that for a year and develop a solid habit of uploading consistently then for you to spend that same year, learning as much as you can about getting effective. Because in the process of doing it, you’re developing that habit so that once you have the knowledge and once you, once you know what you’re doing, once you figure out where you’re making mistakes.

You can apply that to action that you’re already taking. And that’s huge. Like you can’t, you can’t replace with, with research and planning and stuff, you can’t, you can’t replace the results of action with planning. And that’s, that’s the thing I think we get hung up on sometimes.

Dan: [00:36:22] I agree. I, I want to hear what some of these other things are on the list that disguise themselves as actions.

Ben: [00:36:28] We’ll get to those. So I, I want to talk about like this consistent effort over time and just doing things, you know, just getting into a rhythm of uploading, going out and, and running, choosing to sit down and put pen to paper or put your fingers on the keyboard and write something. just even starting out with a little bit of something  and using that action as momentum.

You know, like I th I think we, we underestimate how powerful it is to sit down  and just take small steps toward the result consistently. Sean Sean posted recently, and I’m, I’m kind of paraphrasing it a little bit, but if you write 275 words per day, 275 words isn’t like that might take you five or 10 minutes just to, just to sit down and hash out.

It’s not a lot, but if you do that everyday for a year, at the end of that year, you’ve got more than 100,000 words.

And it’s, and, and so like in my mind, I never necessarily saw myself as someone who would write a book. I figured, you know, like maybe I could write a book, but it would take a great deal of effort, but it just, it doesn’t occurred.

It hadn’t occurred to me that if I just wrote 300 words by the end of the year, I’d have. A rough draft that I, you know, like I would have a legitimate rough draft that I could then edit and, and do something with it. You know, like, it would, it could be a real thing. Like that could be a reality. And it’s these little consistent steps over time that bring about that result.

It’s not. It’s not sitting down and blocking out five hours in a day to try to write 10,000 words. You know, like that’s, that’s not the thing. You can do it that way. But what if you develop a habit of writing 300 words a day and then that turns into 500 words a day, and then that turns into a thousand words a day.

Like, you know what, if that consistent action. And, and you developing that muscle gives it rim to, to grow and evolve into something that produces results that you never dreamed of.

Dan: [00:39:17] I don’t know if this is on your list, Ben, but I think that one of the ways that we trick ourselves, one of the things that the skies is as an action is that we trade those small, consistent actions for the, well, a lot of the times, like the fantasy of someday taking a big action. So like you said, you know, blocking out five hours in a day to sit down and.

Crank out 10,000 words

might be a good idea, but my money is on. You’re not even going to do that if you’re not already writing a few hundred words a day, you know? And then like how many days go by while you’re planning, which day is the right one to block out? Five hours, nevermind that you’ll probably never find a day where you can block out five hours to do nothing but write.

But. You know, the, this is, it’s E. I think it’s easy to trick ourselves into thinking we’ve got to do big stuff instead of doing the little stuff. You know, I, I like the analogy back to fitness, back to going to the gym, back to things like, back to things like weight lifting, because because there is something physical there, it might be easier for people to sort of understand, right?

Like if you never lift weights. Then if you walk into the gym and there’s a barbell on the floor with three plates on each side, you probably can’t deadlift it. You know, you might get it off the floor and then immediately need to be taken to hospital.

Ben: [00:40:48] You know, I’m, I’m glad that you bring that up because. Later in the episode, I want to make an attempt at building this matrix that uses patients and execution. So just remind me of that later.

Dan: [00:41:04] Remind you of the patients versus execution matrix. I, I’m going to warn you, Ben, there’s an awful lot of loops that you’ve opened and that at some point the the, the people are going to need you to close them.

Ben: [00:41:15] I know. Well, we’ll get there. We’ll get

Dan: [00:41:17] Okay. All right. So, but the, the, the thing that’s interesting to me, but you know, from what I’ve learned about weightlifting in particular, is most people that do not have like severe injuries or physical disabilities could eventually reach the point where they could do a three plate deadlift.

As crazy as that sounds. But the way you get there is by lifting a small amount of weight a few times a week, every week, week after week after week after week, slowly increasing how much weight it is until you can pull three plates off the floor, you know, and, and it, and it might take you a year, but it might not.

It might only take you three or four months, but it’s going to be three or four months of not missing a workout. Not three or four months of one of these days I’m going to walk into a gym.

Ben: [00:42:13] So that’s, that’s kind of the thing that. I wanted to get to next is there, I think there is, there are things that you should be impatient with and those things are really anything that you do toward your goal that happens, that proceeds taking action. You know, like there, there, there are metaphors in scenarios where this isn’t right.

Like obviously if someone’s going to build a building. You know, like before they bring the machines in to put stuff together, you have to have a really solid blueprint. Right? But, but for those things where action is more valuable, then the plan or the, or the knowledge or the insight that you bring to.

To that action. so I like, I would come back to the building growing a YouTube channel again. Mmm. I feel like consistency and, and developing that consistency, getting into like building an actual habit  way more valuable. Then. Knowing the exact right things to do to please the YouTube SEO gods. But there, you know, like there are things that some, some people decide, I’m going to start a YouTube channel and I’m gonna, I’m gonna learn everything I can about how to do it the right way.

And so they’re, they’re being patient. You know, they’re being patient with themselves and learning and planning and coming up with an editorial schedule and like doing all these things that you’re supposed to do, but it’s keeping them from really just getting started when they could pick up those skills along the way and be much further down the road by the time they’ve really got a grasp on it.

Not to mention some of those things. You have to figure out and learn through experience and experimentation and failure, and you can’t, you can’t fail when you’re not actually doing something that you could fail at. So you should be, and this should, this should be your mentality. You should feel very impatient.

With anything that you do toward your goal that proceeds taking action. Matt, it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do them, but you should. And this is my list. Beware things that disguise themselves as action. So like brainstorming, research, meetings, having visioning sessions, making a mood board. We used to have a soundboard as a sound bite for that.

I think I can, I think I can do it.

Hold on. Yeah. All right. Make a mood board. That was, 

Dan: [00:45:35] How did you, how did you, how did you get Sean suddenly into the stream like that? That sounded just like him

Ben: [00:45:41] well, let me, let me do it again. Make a mood board.

I just.

I have, I have the actual sound bite here. That’s what’s going on.

Dan: [00:45:49] and so is what you’re telling us that we shouldn’t make mood boards.

Ben: [00:45:54] No, no. I’m not saying that. I’m not, I’m not saying you shouldn’t brainstorm. I’m not saying you shouldn’t research. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have meetings. I’m not saying you shouldn’t make mood boards. I’m saying don’t think of those as taking action.

Dan: [00:46:12] I almost deleted my Pinterest account. That was close.

Ben: [00:46:16] Yeah. Don’t, don’t think of those as taking action and be very impatient with that part of the process. Like, and I, I think, I think I’m safe here saying that like it’s okay to be impatient with the process of preparing to take your first step, especially. When you can often retroactively add those things to action that you’re already taking and be further down the road and feel more confident and feel like you’ve, you’ve actually made progress.

Like I, I just, I think that’s a much better way to go. And I think that’s a safe mentality to have, be impatient with those things.

Dan: [00:47:05] I like that. I want to make sure we bring in a question that Laura asked in the chat earlier on because I think we’ve, we’ve answered it or we’re working on the answer. Laura had asked. Whether the decision is to start or finish something or keep at it. Oftentimes the space between reaching a decision and acting on it is where determination and propositions go to die.

Is it possible to train yourself to reduce that lag? And I feel like that’s what we’re talking about now. You know? I mean, obviously, yes, of course it’s possible. I, I think the way that you reduce that lag is once you reach a decision, act on it, like figure out what the smallest action is and do it. Well a, regardless of what that is, because you know, Ben, what you were talking about it is, a lot of it is covered by a term I like.

I like the term, I don’t like what the term describes, which is a rumination, you know, room rumination where you’re, I mean, dictionary definition, a deepened, considered thought about something or the action or process of thinking deeply about something.

Ben: [00:48:08] How dare they use the word action

Dan: [00:48:11] Well, this is what I mean. I mean, I’m more, I’m more negative. Definition for rumination is worrying, and it’s, it’s repetitive thoughts where you’re just constantly having the same thought over and over and things like that might be familiar to people who, for example, suffer from anxiety. But I think even even if not when you find yourself.

Going over and over the same mental territory. That’s usually a pretty good example that you, you’re, you’re at that point where you should just be taking action there. There are a lot of questions that we ask. And I, I tend to, I tend to describe these as questions where if you’re asking the question, that’s the answer, which is a little bit flippant, but I think there are of the form of like, you know, I’ve made up my mind that I want to do this thing now how do I do it?

Well, the way you do it is to stop asking questions like that and start doing it. Like you, you probably already know you have at least some idea of what doing this thing you want to do, whether it’s making YouTube videos or lifting weights would look like. Now figure out what the very first step, like what could you do in the next five minutes in the service of doing that.

And it might be a web search, but go do it.

Ben: [00:49:31] Yeah, and this is, this is the thing I think is really difficult for some people because unless. Unless you’re gifted with or have really worked to cultivate an optimistic mindset. your brain is essentially wired to give you the worst case scenario. Like you’re, your brain is wired to protect you from harm and discomfort and calamity.

And so. It’s really good at, it’s really good at telling stories. It’s really good at imagining scenarios. Like the more time you give your brain to come up with reasons why not to take action, the more it’s going to give you just by default and some more than others, some less than others. But generally that’s true.

And that’s why, that’s why I think we need to be really impatient. With anything that takes up our time. Getting from deciding to do something and actually doing it cause you, you’ve got to like outside of, outside of trying to cultivate a more optimistic attitude and purposeful, you know, like visualization of a positive outcome.

Like outside of those things. The, the number one thing you can do to keep your brain from doing that is to not give it the time. Because once you start taking action, that’s when you really learn what’s going to happen when you’re taking action.

Dan: [00:51:23] Right. Instead of inventing more scenarios about what might happen. You used a, you used an interesting example before that I just want to touch on again briefly, which was this idea that before you build a building, you do have to do a lot of planning. You have to come up with the blueprints and like the blueprints better be right, because if you build a building wrong, that could have some drastic consequences.

I think that’s, that’s an important example to talk about what a lot of us do a lot of the time, and again, we’re generally talking about our creative passions, like making music or telling stories or making clothing, or, you know, making films, not constructing buildings or bridges that can’t fall over or else people will die.

You know, we tend to. We tend to misunderstand or overestimate risk, right? The reason you do a lot of planning before you build a building is because the risks of getting that wrong are extremely severe, but the reason that you don’t need to do a lot of planning before you start your YouTube channel are that the risks of getting that wrong are not severe.

You should just do them.

Ben: [00:52:35] And I would say that if, if the risks are severe, and, and I, I use the word severe, well, let’s say for example, and this is, this is kind of where the overlap. Technique comes into play if you’re putting all of your eggs in the basket of, I’m going to grow my YouTube channel and I’m going to be able to pay my bills from the ad revenue, and that has to happen within the next three months because that’s all the savings I’ve got left.

Dan: [00:53:08] That’s a bad idea.

Ben: [00:53:10] That’s a bad idea. So you’re like, you’re , you want to like you might be in circumstances like that. And, and so this is, this is not the time to, to try to exercise your patients and make sure you’re like, this is actually the time to evaluate your situation and Terman what you need to do to take that risk out of the equation.

And, you know, like some of the risk is deferred. So like with, with exercise, there is a risk. If you don’t exercise, you’re at higher risk for disease and stuff like that later in life.

But that doesn’t mean that you should spend as much time planning as possible like it is. So, so in that scenario, the risk is worth even getting started doing something not quite right.

Dan: [00:54:14] We’ll let Ben. I want, let’s, I want to take that example. Turn it a little, because you’re saying that the risk of not exercising is, is bad, but, no, I, I, the thing is that this is more realistic. This is what’s happened to me is that I want to start lifting weights. If you, if you lift weights and your form is bad, you can develop bad habits and you can increase your likelihood of injuring yourself.

Ben: [00:54:35] right.

Dan: [00:54:36] I, I’ve been in the position. More than once where I’ve talked myself into like watching more videos or reading more blog posts instead of, you know, grabbing my dumbbells and picking them up. But, you know, I’ve gotten enough advice to this effect to, to snap me out of that a little like P, you know, people who, who know from physical fitness have said like, you’re, you’re better off just starting and developing the habit of working out.

And. As you do that, you can start bringing in some information and some exercises to help you improve your form because the realistically, like, you’re not going to give yourself a career ending injury when you pick up 20 pounds. Like if, if you’re, if you have bad habits when you’re, you know, go back to our, our example from before, if you’re trying to dead lift 350 pounds.

And you have bad form, then you might hurt yourself, but you’re, you’re far, far away from that point. So instead you should just start doing the thing. And then, and so, see, also the same thing about YouTube videos. Like if you, if you’re a famous YouTuber and you have some big public screw up, maybe it damages your reputation.

But you know, if, if you, if you put up your first YouTube video that no one’s even going to see, and it’s not that good like that, that is not, that’s not high risk. That’s, that’s not, you know, you, you will not be destroyed by that experience. You need that experience.

Ben: [00:56:02] And I think, I think patients just. In general still works to your advantage in a scenario where you’re getting started and you’re not quite sure what you’re doing, but with the, with the weightlifting thing, I think going into it with the mindset that it’s going to take a long time for you to see results and that it’s going to take time for you to grow incrementally into the abilities that you’d like to have lifting weights.

I think puts you in a, like it, it increases the chances that you’re going to go in and pick an appropriate weight or choose an appropriate exercise because you’re not going to be thinking about like, Oh, I need to go in and, you know, lift three place right away. You’re going to be thinking about, I need to go in and do something so that I can get started.

So that. 12 months from now, I can live three plates. And so I th I think still like in that scenario, patience works to your advantage. You’re, you’re being appropriately impatient with everything that proceeds actually getting started and then appropriately patient with the results. So that that’s, that’s kind of the, I think that’s really the crux of it.

It’s like knowing when to not exercise patients and when to exercise patients.

Dan: [00:57:46] You. Yeah. You made the point before about you. You might have to put yourself in a position where you can afford to be patient, because like you said, in the hopefully somewhat unrealistic scenario where a person. Bet everything on becoming a YouTube, a YouTube sensation in the next three months.

Ben: [00:58:02] Say unrealistic scenario.

Dan: [00:58:04] I’m saying hopefully unrealistic that, you know, if you put yourself in that position, then yeah, patients will not avail you.

Right? Instead, what you want to do is put yourself in a position where you can afford to be patient and the callback to overlap makes sense because. That, that book a, which you can check out@overlapbook.com you can read it for free online. Sean wrote this book, and it’s all about this idea of you, you know, putting yourself in a position where you can be patient.

If it’s gonna take you years to become a YouTube sensation or a professional musician or a or an author, you put yourself in the, in this position where. You know, you have some a day job or some way to pay all your bills and now you can afford to be patient because you don’t have this tremendous a need to like feed and clothe yourself, riding on the outcome.

Ben: [00:58:59] Yeah. And this, this kind of gets to. Something that you were saying earlier that that I said I would bring back in. So I’m going to go ahead and bring this in. Right now, you’re, you’re talking about that perspective, knowing what it actually takes, like

Dan: [00:59:18] Yeah.

Ben: [00:59:19] having an understanding of how the sausage is made, right?

So  if you’ve been working at something for a long time. And you haven’t seen results yet, and you’re starting to feel frustrated or, or burned out. It’s, it’s not  this is, this is kind of the question that I put in here, so maybe this is a question you’re asking. How do I know when it’s time to stop executing on something and change course?

So maybe, maybe that’s a question you’re really asking, or maybe you’re just, you’re starting to feel a little bit worn out. You’re starting to feel like. You know, that finish line isn’t moving toward you as fast as you’d like it to. I think it’s, I think it’s okay to take the time to get the real story behind the successes that are related to your goals.

You know, you see somebody else who experienced success and it’s easy to make assumptions about what it took for them to get there. But sometimes, sometimes there’s enough information out there that with some research you can learn about the actions that they were taking. Like what were they really doing from day to day to achieve that results that to, to achieve that result.

What circumstances were they in? You know, maybe their circumstances are wildly different from yours. What kind of help did they have around them? You know, like maybe you’re trying to do this on your own or with a small team and this person had, you know, like a whole community of people helping them. Mmm.

How long did it really take them versus, you know, whatever popular Cinderella story is told about this person’s success or the impression that you have of it. How long did it really take?  that perspective can be helpful, but I think it’s secondary. Two, your willingness to continue to take action. So what, what if you didn’t have the promise of of a result?

And I think this is just a good question for us to ask ourselves. Like, I ask, I ask Rachel this all the time, like, what if. What if you never sold another manuscript again for the rest of your life? Would you still right and for her the answer is absolutely yes. Now she has, she has a goal of publishing lots of books.

She wants to get a movie deal. Like there are lots of things that she wants to do. The action that’s necessary in order for her to reach those goals is something that she. Has decided she’s going to do regardless of the outcome. And that doesn’t mean that if you’re not there, you should stop. But I think it’s a good question to ask.

Like, would I be able to sustain execution without the promise of a result? And if the answer is no, then it just might be time to look at everything again and reevaluate.

Dan: [01:02:39] There’s a, there’s a thing there about. Knowing, knowing what you want and knowing what you want in an accurate way. This is another part of getting to learn how the sausage is made. You know, the, this goes back a little bit to, something Shawn and I talked about on a previous show called, why would you even want to start a business?

I think it was four 64, but maybe someone can help me out and, and look that up. But you know. A lot of the time we, I’m going to go back to my example of say, Chris Evans, right? As the actor who plays captain America, pretty sure,

Ben: [01:03:16] That’s correct.

Dan: [01:03:17] yeah. He’s, he’s a, he is in very good physical condition and

it would be, it’s easy to just like see pictures of a person and go, I wish I looked like that, for example.

And have that be the reason that you’re trying to work out. But as we sort of said before, you don’t know how the sausage is made and just going to the gym a couple times a week is not going to make you look like that because actually like, eh, you know, eh, in a profession, a professional bodybuilder or an actor who’s playing a role like that, they’re going to have a whole team.

And by the way, they’re probably going to the gym more like six or seven days a week instead of three. Like once you learn what it takes to get an outcome, it is worth coming back and asking yourself. Is the outcome actually what you even want, right? Because  it’s easy for us to want things and it’s not as easy to understand why we want them.

Right. Like a one, one thing we say it about Sean  that we come at everything from a standpoint of values and knowing what your values are as important. I think it makes a heck of a lot of sense to try to get really healthy and fit. If you value health and fitness for their own sakes, I think if you see a picture of somebody in wish you had their body, then a, you’re, you’re almost certainly not going to go about the way that they got that body the right way.

And B, it’s, it’s worth asking, what do you even want that for? Is there some other thing that you actually want that is a better fit for your values and will you take action in the service of that? Thing, because here’s the other part of it. The reason this is so complicated, achieving things as complicated as that, it isn’t simply about you have to take action.

The actions you’re taking are not guaranteed to be effective, right? And so you can go to the gym for a year, regularly. And not see the results you want. Maybe you’re not seeing the results you want. Cause those results looking like Chris Evans were never realistic in the first place and you’re not doing the things that would take you there, but maybe you’re not seeing results because the things you are doing just just aren’t quite the right things.

Now, if, if that’s the case, I think the, the takeaway here is that if that’s the case, it’s nonetheless, it’s still better to spend a year. Doing ineffective things than doing nothing. It’s better to post YouTube videos without understanding that you’re not getting any SEO and then learn how to do the SEO than it is to just never start your channel until you feel like you’ve learned enough about SEO.

Ben: [01:06:01] I think it’s safe to assume that someone who is trying to achieve a result is, is going to. Look for markers of progress and we’ll make adjustments or seek out ways to make adjustments based on where they think they are in the journey.

Dan: [01:06:29] Yeah. Yeah, but, but I just, I just want to caution people a little bit. When I said complex, when I’m talking about complexity, because again, like. Until you know the thing that you’re trying to do quite well. You don’t necessarily know what a good marker is. You don’t necessarily know, should I be seeing, a different results from what I am

Ben: [01:06:52] Well, and, and so. So I think we’re, I think we’re saying the same thing, but just in a different way. So let’s say you’ve been working out for three months and you’re, you’re trying to build up to, you know, the three plate deadlifts since we keep going back there, which I can do, but, you know, that’s not, anyways, I’m just kidding.

I actually don’t know if I could,

Dan: [01:07:16] Oh boy. All

Ben: [01:07:16] I’m not gonna I’m not going to go try it

Dan: [01:07:18] Next episode we’re going to have, Ben tried to do a PR dead lift on a, on the show live.

Ben: [01:07:24] and then I’ll do the rest of the show lying down. So,

Dan: [01:07:27] That’s right.

Ben: [01:07:29] so in three months, you, you have been going every single day and you haven’t been able to pass, let’s see, started out at 95 pounds and in three months you haven’t been able to pass. 95 pounds. Like you just, you keep going and you’re doing the same thing.

You, you know, like at that point it’s like, well, if I keep going at this rate, or maybe, maybe you’ve only, you know, like you’ve only gotten to up to 115 or something like that.  you think to yourself, at this rate, I’m not going to get to that 300 pound Mark. I mean that, that three plate Mark. what, what would that be like?

I think that’s three Oh five, something like that. or three 15.

That’s right. So, so fun. Three 15.

Yeah, I’m not, well, I’m not, I haven’t made enough progress. So I think like, like, like when you’re taking the road trip. And, and you’ve got so many, like you got your speed and stuff like that, but let’s say like you couldn’t tell how fast you were going.

You didn’t know distances between cities and stuff, but you knew like by day two I should be, or you know, by the end of day one, I should’ve made it to Lafayette. You get to the end of day one and you haven’t seen Lafayette yet. Well, unless you’re really stubborn and prideful, like you’ll pull off and you’ll ask for directions.

You’d be like, Hey, I’m trying to make to Lafayette. I thought I was going to be there by now.  someone can tell you, Oh yeah, you just take this road and this road and you’re there. You know? Like it might be something really simple that you need to tweak or change to start to see results. But I think the thing I want to, the thing I want to avoid is getting people back into that mindset of.

I have to know all of the right things to do. Otherwise I’m not going to see any progress. And the thing that you’ve really got working for you three months in, even though you’ve only, you’ve only been able to, to grow to lifting 115 pounds, the thing you’ve got working for you is this habit that you’ve created of showing up and then PLI, new information that, that you are more likely to seek out because you’re focused on a result.

Apply new information to that habit that you’ve already established and you’re still going to be further along than if you’d waited. You know, up to that point to make sure that you had all of that, the right information before you started.

Dan: [01:10:22] That’s, that’s a great metaphor because it, it made me think of this, and I think this is the key difference between. Acting and then needing information and just always getting more information. Cause if you’re in Texas cause it, cause what you’re talking about is you hit the point where you have to bring in other people, people with more experience, people with different experience to help you get out of a rut, out of a plateau or fix your direction if you’re on the wrong course.

Now if you’re in Texas and you ask someone, how do I get to New York city?

They could. There’s a lot of different things they could tell you because there are hypothetically many different ways you could get to New York city, right? They might ask, well, you do you want the scenic route? Do you want the most direct route?

Do you, you know, how do you want to go? And similarly, but on the other hand, if you’re on a specific highway, and you’ll have to, excuse me, I don’t know what highway runs between Texas and New York. I assume it has an I in its name somewhere, but. If you’re on a specific highway and you say to someone, I expected to see Lafayette or some other city by now, what’s going on?

They can tell you, Oh, you got off at the wrong exit 50 miles back. You have to go here, here, here, and then you’ll get back on the correct route. And similarly, if you just ask someone, how do I get in shape? They’re likely to go, well. Like they, they can’t give you very good advice because there’s too many variables.

You haven’t done anything yet. Whereas on the other hand, if you’re doing specific exercises three times a week and you, you eat certain types of food and you’re dead lift. Has hit a plateau at 95 pounds, then you can ask someone with more experience, how do I solve that specific problem? And they’ll tell you, you’re not eating enough protein, or you need to do this other exercise, or, you know, do this, or you’re not resting properly in between exercises.

They can’t give you any of that advice if you’re not already taking action.

Ben: [01:12:22] Well, and you know, like having, having been a part of some of the like onboarding for Jim members, one of the things they do right away is they, like the coaches will ask, okay, what is, what is your nutrition like D, are you doing any physical activity right now? If so, what is it. And before, before you’re taking any action, let’s say, let’s say like, you know the answer, why I just eat whatever.

and I’m not doing anything right now. It’s, it’s really difficult. Like the best that coach can do in that scenario is to say, okay, let’s try this and let’s let, let’s try this for your diet and let’s start you out with. These exercise movements and these exercise movements being really like the most basic low impact, low risk movements that because they don’t know what you’re capable of because you haven’t been doing anything.

Dan: [01:13:28] Well, a notice that spin that they’re telling you start doing stuff right. The coach does not tell you, okay, I don’t know about your nutrition and I don’t know about your level of fitness, so here’s a book about nutrition you should read. They say, do these things, because that will give us information that we can use to form that feedback loop.

Ben: [01:13:48] yeah. And then the F in the following week and they, and they take measurements and stuff in the, in the following week. They’re able to see the results in your measurements of your nutrition. They’re able to see how you handle different moves and say, Oh, so you actually did that really well. It looks like you’d be capable of doing this now, and so then, then the information and the feedback can get more much more specific and, and helpful.

And I think that’s, I mean, that kind of goes along with this curve where, you know, kind of doing it for the camera now, but it’s, it’s this line that kind of starts out from the origination point. It looks like it’s, it’s trending upward, but very slowly and it’s just going straight. And then gradually it starts to curve upward more and more.

And.

Dan: [01:14:46] You’re describing an exponential curve, then.

Ben: [01:14:49] That’s the key. Yeah. That’s where you could just call it an exponential curve, I think. I think that trajectory for growth  the most common trajectory for consistent execution where you are focused on a result and. By virtue of the fact that you’re focused on a result, you’re probably seeking out some kind of feedback to help you improve.

But just, you know, like without doing something, that line’s not moving anywhere. And that’s, that’s the thing that I think we’ve been kind of beating a dead horse with this episode, but get moving.

Dan: [01:15:34] Yeah. Well. The point is that if you want to beat a dead horse effectively, you’re going to need both patients and execution. Not, I’m sorry. That’s not, that might not actually be the point.

Ben: [01:15:44] It depends on the tool that you’re using. No horses.

Dan: [01:15:48] No horses were harmed in the making of this episode. It’s important to say that, I love the visualization of the curve and just that idea that, you know, if the curve is moving at all, eventually its rate of change increases more and more. That’s, that’s that classic exponential or hockey stick graph where you know, it’s, it’s going up a little, but then it’s going up a little more and it’s going up a little more.

And what’s really happening is the rate of change is increasing over time. And to go back, to go back to the thing about the email subscribers. The problem is when you get, when you only have three and then six and then 24 and then 125 that feels like it’s not taking you anywhere. But if you have a rate of growth like that, in a few years, you will have hundreds of thousands of subscribers potentially.

It’s similar to the, you know, the trick they play on you in elementary school where they say,

for the next month, I can either give you $100 every day. Or I can give you a penny on the first day and then two pennies on the second and then double that amount, double the previous amount every day thereafter, which is the better deal.

Which one would you take, Ben?

Ben: [01:16:59] Oh, I would take the penny, but it’s because I’m, it’s because I know.

Dan: [01:17:02] Yeah. Ben’s been around long enough to know because it sounds like a a hundred dollars a day for 30 days is so much money, especially when you’re in the fourth grade. But there’s no way that the doubling could possibly catch up in time, but in fact, yeah, w you know, one penny doubled every day for 30 days ends up being something like billions of dollars by the end of the month.

Right. This is used. It’s used to, to show the power of exponential growth, where the rate of change keeps increasing.

Ben: [01:17:33] Right? So I want to, I want to try to tackle this matrix, this, execution patients matrix, and, and I kind of,

Dan: [01:17:45] is where, this is where if you take the red pill, you see how deep the rabbit hole goes, or the blue pill.

Ben: [01:17:52] yeah. We’re just doing this live. So I’ve got, in my mind, I’ve got this idea of like a quadrant, so. You know, a box, you draw a line across the horizontal and vertical axis, and you’ve got a quadrant, so four boxes, and on the side you’ve got, you know, down at the bottom on the side you got low patients and high patients, or you know, little patients and a lot of patients.

All right. And then on the bottom, closest to the, to the lower. left hand corner, you’ve got low execution, high execution. All right? So I think in the, in the low execution, low patients quadrant, you’ve got, you’ve got that scenario where it’s like, I’m not, I’m not really doing anything.

Dan: [01:18:48] Why haven’t I seen results?

Ben: [01:18:52] Or, or that might be the place where you’re fooling yourself. You think that you’ve been taking action, but you really haven’t, and you’re getting so frustrated that nothing is happening.

Dan: [01:19:03] Yeah. Well, and, and we’ve all seen comments like this where it’s like, I’ve been, I, I’ve been posting a video, I’ve been posting a video once every couple of weeks for a couple of weeks now. Why don’t I have 100,000 subscribers yet?

Ben: [01:19:15] yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s the worst. So. Low execution. High patients is also pretty bad. Like you’ve got a lot of patients, but you’re still not doing anything. You’re just not taking the action necessary and you can waste years of your life and I don’t mean waste. You can spend years of your life fooling yourself into thinking that you’ve been taking the appropriate amount of action.

Fooling yourself into thinking I’m an entrepreneur. Or I’m building a business or whatever it is, because you’re not executing at the level you should because you’re not taking the right actions. You’re going to get five years down the road, you’re going to get 10 years down the road and be in the same place, and eventually that is going to be very frustrating and create feelings of regret.

And. So like you don’t, you don’t want that either. And then you’ve got the, the other side of the quadrant where you’ve got,

Dan: [01:20:19] You got like low patients, but high execution.

Ben: [01:20:23] and this is what I thought of when you talked about the person who goes into the gym for the first time and they try to lift three plates when they haven’t done any deadlifting whatsoever. I want results and I want results now, and I’m going to, and I’m going to burn myself out. I’m going to injure my, like this is, this is where you get injured.

This is where you get burned out. This is where you put forth maybe too much, like too much execution. You put forth too much effort, an unsustainable amount of effort because you think that the results that you, you want to see should happen sooner than they actually will. And you know, so like maybe, maybe you’re there.

So really that there’s this sweet spot, this, this upper quadrant, this upper right hand quadrant of I patients are, or a lot of patients and high execution. So you’re, and I would S when I say high execution, I mean something, something that maybe challenges you a little bit, but is also something that you can sustain.

You know, like you’re, you are exercising a sustainable level of execution and you’re exercising enough patients to see that execution turn into results in an appropriate amount of time, which could be several months. It could be several years, depending on the result you’re trying to create. I’m going to, I’m going to have to draw this out and.

Or design it. Maybe we can put it in the show notes or something, or maybe maybe it’s clear enough that you’ve got a picture of it in your mind.

Dan: [01:22:09] I think we’d all love to see it in the show notes, Ben. But now that is on you to, to create because I have little to no artistic capabilities.

Ben: [01:22:18] Yeah. All you have to do is open up Photoshop and magic happens

or, or illustrator or whatever you use. But you know, ask yourself with, with whatever it is you’re trying to pursue, if you’re feeling frustrated or if you’re, you’re on the verge of, of feeling burned out or whatever it is, you know, ask yourself, where am I on that matrix?

And be real with yourself too. Like if you, if you’re frustrated that you haven’t seen results. But you haven’t really been taking the action necessary to to see those results. You have to be real with yourself about that because if you’re not real with yourself about that, you can’t change it and you’re just gonna continue feeling frustrated.

I need to do that for myself often.

Dan: [01:23:12] Yeah, likewise. And it occurs to me because I’m applying this to myself, that

again, it’s easy to have lots of different wants, but I think, I think the act of doing this exercise is how you learn what you really want. Because there, there will be things that you’re not willing to be patient about to see results, and there will be things that you’re not willing to put in the reps.

As you put it, Ben, where you’re, you’re not, you’re not willing to execute at the level you need to, to see the results. But then there are these things, there are probably some things in your life where you will do both. You will put in the reps and you will recognize that it’ll take patients, but you, this is one of these things that you, you, you might have to do wrong a bunch just to find out what those things are, right?

I mean, maybe you, maybe you start off thinking you want to. Post videos of your three plate dead lifts on YouTube, but it turns out you don’t actually care that much about, about that. You don’t care about it enough to post videos every day and go to the gym enough times a week. That and the thing, the thing too, you know you, you stepped away from saying wasting years of your life.

Like we want to make sure that, that we make the point. If you don’t do these big dramatic things, that’s perfectly okay. But if you spend your life wanting to do these things but lack the patience or lack the execution, now you’re going to have a problem because now you’re setting yourself up for, you know, pain and regret and you’re setting yourself up for, for dissatisfaction in the moment.

you’ve decided that you want to do something difficult. Patients and execution are what are required.

Ben: [01:24:57] Again, it’s not patients versus execution, but it’s execution with patients. That’s the. That’s where the power is.

Dan: [01:25:10] Yeah. I like that. Do you still have loops that you opened, Ben, or have you closed the mall.

Ben: [01:25:17] I believe I have closed the loops.

Dan: [01:25:20] Okay. If someone is still waiting on a loop that Ben hasn’t closed, they can, they can write to us and, and let us know and we can cover it in the future. there was a question, there’s another question in the chat that I thought we’d get to.

Ben: [01:25:34] Yeah.

Dan: [01:25:36] Michelle said, I’ve done really well by holding myself to certain non negotiables that must be touched on, completed daily.

I’ll not climb into bed unless I’ve done them. I currently have three right paint website. It’s working great, and I’ve been wanting to add more, but it seems my threshold is just three currently. My fourth exercise and my fifth reading only happen about three to four times a week. What are your thoughts on this kind of approach?

Any tips?

So, I mean, I’ll give, I’ll give you my thoughts first, Michelle, which is, it sounds like you’re doing amazing. You haven’t said this directly in the question, but I’m inferring it from the, the way that the question was asked is that you do, you work, you write, you paint, and you work on your website daily, like every single day, but you only exercise and read about three to four times a week and you would like to be doing them every single day as well.

The very first thing I want you to do though is flip this idea around. You’re your quote. Only. Exercising and reading three times a week. That’s still fantastic though. I mean, that’s, I presume that’s more exercising and reading than you’ve done in the past. It’s more exercising and reading than I probably do.

So the first thing I want to make sure you think of this as a success and not a failure. I want to make sure you avoid our tendency to, you know, do something well and then become, and then start to take that for granted and now become dissatisfied that you’re not also doing this other thing as well as you, as you wish you were.

So the first thing I’d say is congratulations cause you’re doing awesome. Now the next couple pieces to this are as I think we’ve alluded to, you know, give it time. Patients. Right? Like it, it just might take a while before you find the way that exercise and reading fit into every single day. So I would say if you’re, you want to go from three to four times a week to seven times a week.

Okay. Well, you know, don’t, don’t get disappointed that you’re not doing them daily and stop doing them entirely, you know, be okay with. Exercising and reading three to four times a week and see where you can go from there. But you know, the last point I’d make on this is just to ask yourself, you’re writing, painting, and working on your website every day, but you are having difficulty, it sounds like exercising and reading every single day.

Well, let me ask you this. Do you care about all those things equally, this comes back to the topic we covered of knowing what you really want. Exercising and reading are both important, but it’s possible. They’re just not as important to you as writing and painting and working on your website. And that might be fine.

So, so I want you to ask yourself these questions and then see where you, you feel like you’re at. But Ben, what? What are your thoughts on this?

Ben: [01:28:35] Well, I love the quote that Michelle followed up with her question from a book that she’s reading and the quote says, self-improvement is not the cultivation of greater happiness, but rather a cultivation of greater self-respect. Self love and self respect are therefore not something you learn about or practice.

There is something you are ethically called to cultivate within yourself, even if they are all you have left. And I like this. So this something you said, Dan, kind of, it goes along with this idea of do you really care about it? And sometimes, sometimes I think that question can be difficult because like, do I, do I really care about running?

For example. Not necessarily, but like there are so many other things that I might not consider in that question. So like something I do care about is having space to think. Having some time to myself, I care about having good cardiovascular health and my, my ability to keep up with my kids. You know, like there are things that I care about that, that specific activity.

Does a really  is a really great solution or answer to. And so like I think it’s, I think it’s good to be in touch with those higher reasons for doing these things. And then I’ll also say that when it comes to building habits into your life, I started, I started the year with like eight things and I’m, I’m, I’m just being completely honest here.

Eight things that I was trying to turn into habits. It’s, it’s extremely difficult just to turn one thing into a habit. And so the fact that you’ve been able to be consistent with three at a time and you’re still doing those other things three to four times a week, that’s a huge win. I’ve got a reset point for myself every week, and so I’m still.

Like I’ve got yet, I have yet to string like more than three days together of doing all eight things consistently. All that to say, you know, like, I think there’s, there’s definitely some room for grace and you know what Dan said about being patient is absolutely right. It takes a long time to turn something into a habit.

And even after it’s become a habit, it still requires some maintenance over time. You know, the amount of maintenance that you have to give to something is less and less. Writing everyday takes effort. Whether you’ve been writing for a month or you’ve been writing for 20 years, it’s still takes some amount of effort.

The thing is that after 20 years, if you’ve been doing it every day, you have all of this evidence behind you. That this is just something that you do. You probably have a space for it. Probably have a specific place that you sit down. Your body at that point probably craves that activity on some level.

And so you’re F you feel being pulled toward it, but it takes time for that habit to become that compelling. And so if you haven’t, if you haven’t read. Atomic habits, James clear does a much better job of describing how habits work and why it’s so difficult to build more than just, you know, a few habits at a time.

but had, like, he, he just lays a really great foundation for how to effectively build habits into your life over time. And it takes patience.

Dan: [01:32:41] Michelle said that those, those three, the big three have been built over a two year timeframe. I didn’t start them all at once. She said, thanks for the affirmations. I can be really hard on myself.

Ben: [01:32:52] Yeah. G give yourself like eight more years.

Dan: [01:32:55] Well, but you know, give yourself the rest of your life too. Like I, I think we, we do those of us that are into this self-improvement game, man, it’s, you know, we fall into this trap an awful lot of the time of just think of, you know, all or nothing thinking, if I don’t, you know, I think I want to do this thing.

If I’m not doing it, bad failure the worst. I hate myself now. Like. If you have five things you want to do every day, or Ben, you have eight things you want to do. Instead of being like, Oh, I almost had a date yesterday. I did seven of the eight, but I still failed. I didn’t do all eight of them. Like I just want, you know, you’re talking about the matrix before.

I want to like download a program into your brain so that your mindset on this is today. I did things to five, six and seven. Awesome. The next day I did three, four, five and six. That’s awesome. The day after that, I did one seven and eight. Awesome. The point is that you did any of these good things that you want to do, but the point isn’t that this arbitrary, you know, this manufactured idea of the perfect human being that you could be if you just did everything right all the time.

Like I want us to abandon that idea.

Ben: [01:34:10] Yeah. The, when you said all or nothing, it made me think of like, I’m in a much better place than I would’ve been, you know, like three or four years ago, trying to do all of these things, these same things. But.

Dan: [01:34:21] Hmm.

Ben: [01:34:22] My, my things, I don’t know if I’m going to remember all eight, but I like, I want to take my daily vitamins, I want to exercise.

like I, I have, it’s not daily, but it’s certain types of exercise, meditation, stretching. Mmm. Having like, following a nightly routine writing. So, you know, like, I look at people I admire. And I just assume, I don’t know, but I just assume if they’re doing well in one area, it probably means they’re doing well in all of those other areas, and I should at least have it together as as much as they do, but I really don’t know.

Dan: [01:35:06] Your, your S your assumption is incorrect. Let, let me. Look, I’ll give you an example. This has been, I think, the most valuable part of my working at Sean Wes. All right. I’m going to be candid here for a second. The most value, the most valuable part of working directly with Sean McCabe is learning that Sean McCabe is not as Sean McCabe as you think he is.

All right. I’m sorry, Sean, to air your dirty laundry like Sean comes across. Sometimes as a guy who does all this stuff perfectly right, he, he Springs out of bed every single morning at four 30 and then he writes for like two hours and then he runs a marathon and then he comes home and then he writes some more and he goes to bed right at eight o’clock but when you actually know Shawn, you will learn that he’s actually a human being, just like you and I am.

And some days he gets that wrong. Some days he doesn’t get out of bed, some days he doesn’t get anything written.

Like  the thing you said about how you look at how other people seem like they’re living their life and then you excoriate yourself for not doing that is maybe the like the bedrock problem underneath all of this because we have no idea what’s going on in other people’s lives.

Those assumptions are very, very problematic.

Ben: [01:36:34] Yeah. And I. And I don’t, I don’t ever want to be the kind of person who’s just like kind of pessimistic about the whole thing. Like I think about this with work life balance, and I’ve even talked about this before where I kind of, I kind of reject this idea that’s out there where, where they say, well, you can have, Oh really healthy personal.

Life and you can have really healthy relationships and family life, but you can’t have that and have a healthy relationship with work, or like, a strong work ethic. Or you can have a healthy work life and you can be excelling and doing really well and you can be taken care of yourself, but you’re going to struggle with your family.

Like I hate that kind of reductionist thinking where it’s like. Not, not that. It’s like you can have it all and you should like, I think, I think it’s okay to want that for yourself and to strive for that and to, and I, and I think it’s okay to reject this idea that it’s not possible to have all of those things firing on all cylinders.

I think the problem we we get ourselves into is when we assume that that’s true for other people, and we shortcut the process of, of getting there because we assume something about how they did it or their circumstances. And I think that’s kind of the point of this episode. It’s. When, when you see somebody who seems to be doing well, when you don’t know what’s really going on, you don’t know if they’re really, you know, quote unquote firing on all cylinders.

But you also, if they truly are disciplined and doing well in all of these areas, you don’t know the amount of time and effort that they poured into developing those habits. And I know, I know for me. There are things that I, I take for granted now that I’ve, that like I could just go out and I could run three miles every day if I wanted to, and I feel completely physically capable of doing that.

It would be easy for me, but there was a time where that was really challenging because I hadn’t put in the time and the effort. you know, so like there are probably things that are true about you today that, you know, like it’s, it’s easy for you to do something or there’s something that feels like really comes naturally to you that you really had to build and cultivate over time.

And that’s, that’s really what it takes. It’s this practice of applying patients and, or just being patient with yourself. In your pursuit of those things and resisting the urge to compare your results with other people and just, you know, knowing that it takes time.

Dan: [01:39:49] I think a of avoiding that comparison is  important is a, is a big important part of this. I think that this thing with patients and execution, it’s a lot more about figuring out what you want in your life and what’s right for you. But we are. Saddled with this tendency to compare ourselves to others and to adopt the things that we want out of life arbitrarily.

Th this is kind of what I keep coming back to. You know, you said Ben, you know, you said you look at people and you don’t know whether or not they’re firing on all cylinders, and I’m going to take exception to your metaphor a little bit because the phrase firing on all cylinders refers to internal combustion engines, like in cars, the pro.

The thing is, if your car is not firing on all cylinders, there’s something wrong with its engine that you need to get fixed. So the car will work properly. You can’t really save the same thing. I don’t think about a human in terms of what they’re accomplishing. Like because you, you know, you said this before, that people will will say about work life, work, life balance, like, well, you can either have a really healthy family life or you can be a successful entrepreneur, but you can’t do both.

I mean, the fact of the matter is whoever is saying those things. The things they say it. They say may or may not be true about themselves, but they don’t know whether or not they’re true for you, Ben, none of us know whether you can have a successful family life and also run a business. You’re going to have to find that out.

All right, so a big part of this whole process I think is, and a place that patients I hope can come from is an acceptance of the fact that like we are all of us still trying to figure out. What sorts of things we want and what kind of outcomes we want. But if you, if you remain attached to an outcome that is going to severely limit your ability to be patient.

Ben: [01:41:53] Yeah, absolutely.

Dan: [01:41:57] Oh, we got fiery there, Ben. But, but Laura says fiery rants are great because they show you guys care.

Ben: [01:42:04] We do care.

Dan: [01:42:05] We do. Thank you, Laura, for pointing that out, because you know. I, I like getting fiery, but it sometimes feels like kind of a guilty pleasure. You know, like I’m just standing on a soapbox, but, but I’m not, I’m sitting on an Ikea stool.

Ben: [01:42:20] Nice. A little behind the scenes. I’m, I’m standing, I’ve been standing this whole episode and, and dance just sitting over there. I’ll come trouble on his Ikea stool.

Dan: [01:42:31] Yeah. I wouldn’t call it comfortable, but I have been sitting, so Ben, I, it sounds.

Ben: [01:42:35] Fashionable.

Dan: [01:42:36] Well, it’s slightly fashionable. It sounds to me, Ben, like we should give your feet arrests. So do you want to wrap this up?

Ben: [01:42:42] Yeah. Dan, where can people go to find us online?

Dan: [01:42:45] You can go to Shawn west.com and check out Sean last membership. Not only do you get access to all the courses and they’re great courses, like 30 days to better writing, presale profits, value based pricing. I love all these courses, but even better than that, you get access to the Shawn West community.

You know, you’ve heard us talking about people in the chat participating in the show, and so not only do the people in the community interact with our live podcasts, but there’s also conversations going on all the time about all the sorts of topics that we talk about here on this show. And it’s a great place to be.

So yeah, go to Sean west.com check out the membership.

Ben: [01:43:25] Do it.

Dan: [01:43:26] Yes, do it. And where can people find you online?

Ben: [01:43:29] You can find me online@bentolson.com and I’m also at mental sin on all of the things. Dan, where can they find you online?

Dan: [01:43:40] You can find me@djjacobson.com and I am at DJ Jacobson, author on Instagram.

Ben: [01:43:47] All right. What kind of things do you post on Instagram?

Dan: [01:43:50] I, so far it’s mostly pictures of index cards and my desk lamp.

Ben: [01:43:55] Fun.

I’m trying to see if I follow you on Instagram.

Dan: [01:44:42] I hope you do. I follow you on Instagram. Come on fo follow back, bro.

Ben: [01:44:47] Oh, no, it says, it says I’m following.

Dan: [01:44:49] All right. Geez, that was close.

Ben: [01:44:51] Oh, wow. Yeah, so, so I see the picture of your desk lamp.

Dan: [01:44:55] Yes,

Ben: [01:44:56] And behind that are are two pictures of index card ones up close. And then another one’s like, what I imagine you’re, you’re kind of brainstorming, outlining process looks like,

Dan: [01:45:09] yes.

Ben: [01:45:11] and then a screenshot. Oh, and then there’s a picture from a crafting commerce.

Wasn’t that months ago?

Dan: [01:45:19] Oh yeah. I don’t post on Instagram very often. I’m working on it. Well, listen, Ben, you know what’s happening is that I, it’s, it’s becoming a record for me of how infrequently I’ve been working on my novel because I’ve been trying to post, you know, document the process. Just like when I work on it, I’ll post something.

And I rarely, rarely post things cause cause I rarely, I’ve rarely been working on it.

Ben: [01:45:44] Yeah. So if we wanted to hold you accountable, we should visit your Instagram every day and every day there’s not a new post. Send you a message and be like, what’s going on? Dan?

Dan: [01:45:59] I guess if you want it to hold me accountable, that is a thing that you could do.

He’s doing. I’m watching him do it right now. It’s

Ben: [01:46:08] No. Yeah, I’m gonna. I’m going to message you

Dan: [01:46:10] Oh.

Ben: [01:46:11] because let’s see. This lamp picture. Oh, that’s has three days ago. That’s old news.

Dan: [01:46:16] It was such a good picture though. I think. I’m pretty sure the way Instagram works is that the older a picture is the better it. it does. No, maybe not. I got to tell you though, Ben, th this really does call for us to get streaming video working because it’s much more interesting for us to look at Instagram on video when other people can do it too.

Then to just describe it to them via audio.

Ben: [01:46:39] Yeah, it is. Although I wasn’t going to hold my phone up to the like. With my setup. My setup over here is weird cause I’m not in front of a computer screen. So I’m like

Dan: [01:46:50] No, we shouldn’t. I mean, we, we shouldn’t, we shouldn’t get in the habit of looking at Instagram while we do the show anyway. I think that would be problematic.

Ben: [01:46:57] Why? Sometimes you can get good content that way. I just, I just sent Dan a message. I just sent you a message, Dan.

Dan: [01:47:05] I’ll look at it after the show. I don’t, I don’t look at my Instagram messages while I’m podcasting.

Ben: [01:47:09] Well I’ll tell you what it said. It said, Dan, where’s your book?

Dan: [01:47:13] I think you mean both books, right? Cause Sean’s also forcing me to write a book.

Ben: [01:47:17] Oh, yeah,

Dan: [01:47:18] we did a whole episode on that. It was a good one. Ben. Was this a good show? I feel like it started off slow, but it started to gain momentum.

Ben: [01:47:30] I actually felt, I felt the opposite way about it. I F.

I mean, I, it did start, yeah, did start a little bit slow, but that’s kind of how, it’s kind of how it goes. Like

Dan: [01:47:41] Yeah.

Ben: [01:47:44] it was, it was a little bit slow and then, and then I feel like near the end it was still good. It just wasn’t quite as structured. And that’s mostly because we had run out of outline at that point.

Dan: [01:47:57] That’s something sometimes happen.

Ben: [01:47:59] The thing is. sometimes sometimes we make an outline. That’s something that I want to do more of. I like, I like going off of an outline, but I also feel like sometimes the outline causes this feeling of kind of scripted and it becomes a constraint that keeps you from getting into the really good stuff.

So there’s, there’s a, there’s a balance there,

Dan: [01:48:30] Yeah. I think, I think the balance is having the outline to keep you on track though. Cause what, what we, the, you know, the, the thing you ran into a bit at the end of the show, and pardon me calling it back out, was that you were talking for a while and then you kind of went, I feel like I’m kind of rambling now.

And the nice thing about having an outline is it can kind of remind you where you’re trying to land when you start going off on a point right.

Ben: [01:48:50] Yeah. And I, and I knew, I, I think I. I think I knew where I was trying to land. I just realized at some point that the plane was at a different airport somehow, and it was like, well, I guess I got to land here instead of where I was originally going, but that’s okay.

Dan: [01:49:13] Yeah. And then you just hang out in salt Lake city for awhile.

Ben: [01:49:16] Oh, no, no, never. Never go to salt Lake city.