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This podcast episode was not planned.

While staying in San Diego during my sabbatical, my friend Caleb Wojcik invited me to his house to record a podcast. Caleb lives in Encinitas (about a one-hour train ride from where we were staying in downtown San Diego).

Caleb and I recorded two podcasts: one for his show, and another for mine. You’ll see that interview with Caleb on the podcast feed in the next day or two.

I was getting ready to take the 3:00pm train back to the city after recording with Caleb, when I received a new message on Instagram from Calvin Rosser:

“Hey dude, think I saw you’re in San Diego. I’m in Encinitas (north of San Diego) if you want to get together. Fairly free during the evenings this week. Just working and surfing.”

I’d met Calvin once last year at Craft + Commerce conference. We got coffee together the last morning before I went to the airport.

Calvin has been a nomadic traveler for many years now. Over coffee last year in Boise, Idaho, he shared stories of his travels, and emphasized the importance of going with the flow and not having an overly rigid plan.

“You may find that you love a place and want to stay longer.”

At the time, he spoke of settling down. Several years of traveling nomadically was an incredible experience, but he was ready to slow down and stay in one place for awhile.

We both just happened to be in Encinitas at the same exact time. How perfect was it that he messaged me without knowing?

This must have been where he settled down last year.

Calvin laughed. “I actually just got here a day ago.”

“What happened to settling down?”

“I still want to. I miss having friends I see regularly and with whom I can go deep.”

We met at a coffee shop in Encinitas, but Calvin hardly sat down. Right away, he asked if we’d be willing to go somewhere else.

“I actually have a car, but I prefer to walk. There’s a place nearby that’s really nice—it’s about a 14-minute walk from here. Is that okay?”

Calvin has a thoughtful tone, as you’ll hear in the recording. He doesn’t mince words, and he doesn’t waste any time getting straight to deep and meaningful matters.

Before I know it, we walk through an iron gate into another world. I’d never been in a meditation garden, but visiting at golden hour is everything you’d imagine: fish, flowers, and colorful foliage abound as you walk through winding pathways and up stairs.

As we go up, the trees give way to a bright sky with a sun that will set within the hour. We find a bench at the top in a little clearing that reveals a stunning panorama of the Pacific Ocean. We are high up on the cliff.

“I’m trying to remove guilt when not working,” Calvin says.

“Do you mind if I record our conversation?” I ask. “We don’t have to do anything with the recording, but if we end up discussing something worth sharing, then at least we have the option of making it available as a podcast.”

Calvin doesn’t mind. He almost seems indifferent.

I hand him the lavalier microphone to clip to his shirt. He doesn’t seem phased. We don’t begin with any formal introductions. The tone of our conversation remains the same. We just continue talking.

“With my work, I feel that there’s an endless list of things to do. When I’m not working, I should be focused on that list of things to do.”

The guilt. As a recovering workaholic, I know it all too well.

There were only ever two modes:

  1. Working
  2. Feeling guilty about not working

I didn’t like feeling guilty.

Calvin’s the same. He’s internally driven, and unsatisfied with anything less than reaching his full potential.

That was me, and why I worked 18-hour days for a decade. Then I burned out.

“The times I feel the guilt the least, and the times I feel most alive, is when I’m connecting one-on-one with someone else,” Calvin says. “I’m  able to engage with that in a way where the other stuff sort of melts away.”

The seanwes podcast has not, historically, been an interview show. Part of the reason is I, like Calvin, am not one for small talk. I like to go straight to the deep and meaningful stuff. That's what I like about a co-hosted show: you know me, you know my co-host. Great. Now that the introductions are out of the way, let’s get straight to the topic.

Interviews always feel like they have so much preamble. I wasn’t a fan.

But during my sabbatical year, I decided I would record and share conversations I have with people along the way. Sometimes, that’s going to be a podcast interview that’s a planned event, but I also want to experiment with recording and sharing serendipitous conversations like this one. We didn’t plan to record anything, so it feels very raw. But I like that.

I thought about recording a formal introduction to explain who Calvin is, what he does, how we met, why we were talking, and what you’ll get out of the conversation. But that's the furthest thing from what this actually was: a completely unplanned, unscripted, spontaneous moment. I want you to experience this conversation the way it happened in real life.

So I’m trying an experiment: rather than recording an introduction, I’m letting this written description provide the context for the episode. I’m curious to hear how you receive it. Feel free to send me a message on Instagram @seanwes with your thoughts on this raw format.

You can check out Calvin’s writing and sign up for his newsletter at https://CalvinRosser.com. Do reach out and encourage him to start his own podcast if you enjoyed this conversation.

Episode Transcript

Note: This transcript of the episode was machine-generated and has not been edited for correctness. It’s provided for your convenience when searching. Please excuse any errors.

Sean: [00:00:31] I’m not going to like do anything formal. I can always do an intro or something later if I want to.

Calvin: [00:01:06] Cool.

Sean: [00:01:09] So you said you were trying to remove guilt.

Calvin: [00:01:13] Yeah.

Sean: [00:01:14] Guilt with free time, like when you’re not working.

Calvin: [00:01:20] Yeah. I think because with my work, I F I feel that there’s an endless list of things to do. So when I’m not working, it’s almost like I should be focused on that list of things to do. Yeah. And I think the thing as a worker who evaluates myself, so what’s interesting is I’ve done a lot in my life to become internally driven.

And so the guilt is not because I think other people are not going to think I’m a good worker. It’s more I see the Delta between the productivity that I could have and the productivity that I do have. Yeah. and I, I think I probably ultimately hold myself to, an unreachable standard.

Sean: [00:02:03] You know, the theoretical maximum. Maximum. Yeah. And whenever you’re falling short of that, which includes periods of time in which you are off work, then you feel guilty because you know you could do more.

Calvin: [00:02:17] Exactly. Exactly. I also faced the problem that I think a lot of creative people do have. I have a lot of interests and so there’s ton, there’s an endless list of ideas too. These aren’t even things on the to do list, but. endless list of things you could create in the world and you do your best to prioritize.

But that list is also very large. And so I see that Delta too. And it’s, it’s difficult. It’s difficult. I still, of course, find time to enjoy things in my life, but I think having a clear separation between leisure time and work time would. Would it be helpful or healthy even.

Sean: [00:03:01] I can definitely speak to that as someone who is a recovering workaholic. That’s, that’s exactly where I was. There were two modes working. And feeling guilty about not working. And that’s all I ever knew. So I didn’t like feeling guilty, which meant all I did was work. And I felt that it was for the same reason you’re describing, I know what my potential is.

I know that I could do more. And when I wasn’t meeting that I wasn’t satisfied. and what I had to learn the hard way, through just like. Years of pushing, pushing, pushing, and then ultimately burnout and depression, which also took years to get out of. I’m probably still coming out of it if, if I’m being honest.

what I learned is you have to look at things from a more zoomed out perspective, like in the macro, in the big picture, you know, cause, cause, okay, let’s look at it zoomed in first. What we’re comparing is. What I’m doing now versus what I could be doing now, and I could be working more so I could be accomplishing more.

I could be more productive now. And maybe that’s true, and maybe instead you go do something else. You’re going to walk, you write, you do some creative thing, or maybe maybe you’re not even doing any of that. Maybe you’re just watching Netflix or something. The thing is. In the big picture when we zoom out, having that kind of, let’s just use the word balance, for lack of a better word, having that balance is what prevents burnout in the long run.

Like I would love to go back four years ago and not work 16, 17 hour days because I could have saved myself the two years where I was just burned out and like creatively depleted.

Calvin: [00:04:57] Right. Okay.

I think one thing, or one question I have both for you, but something I’m thinking about now is like why did, how does this manifest or why does it manifest for me? And I think I’ve had. I’ve had people who are very close to me, die suddenly in my life, and it’s made me very attuned to kind of the precarious nature of the world we live in and just our general lives.

And so I try to spend my life in a way where I’m, I’m not going to end up on my theoretical deathbed, which. I th I could see as you know, tomorrow or a week from now or 50 years from now with any regrets. And I think there’s that pressure as well in my head where I know that life is very precarious and, our grasp on it is so light that I do want to accomplish the things that I want to accomplish while I can.

And so that, that’s where that stems from me of, of the guilt comes from having this theoretical potential that I’m not meeting. But the sense of urgency comes from this kind of experience I’ve had with people dying in my life

Sean: [00:06:08] So you feel an acute sense of life’s for agility.

Calvin: [00:06:14] every day.

I think it’s a gift as well because it makes me.

Sean: [00:06:22] It’s like if it produces a healthy urgency. Okay.

Calvin: [00:06:25] Yeah. I’m, it also allows me to be more present with my friends or the people I’m interacting with and I’m more conscious of how I use my phone or the things that I do that distracted me from being present or just fully engaged with what I’m doing.

Sean: [00:06:42] It’s interesting to me that you used the word precarious. Like I would, I would use a word that’s uses a lot of similar letters, but, it’s precious. Whereas like, and I could be reading into this more than I should, but precarious almost seems like a fear driven perspective versus precious. One of gratitude.

Like I could lose any of this at any moment versus I have this moment and therefore I’m thankful.

Calvin: [00:07:20] I think you’re right with the sentiment of what I’m trying to convey, which is it is one of gratitude. It’s like I genuinely wake up and. I’m thankful for that. That doesn’t mean I’m not stressed out or thinking about my to do list or anything like that, but at least multiple times a day I’m, I’m thinking, Holy smokes, I’m alive and I should make the most of this.

I mean, look where we are now.

Sean: [00:07:48] That’s pretty great.

We’re in a, what is this? It’s like a Zen garden or something.

Calvin: [00:07:53] It’s a beautiful medic meditation garden right by the ocean sea surfers. He can hear laughing, happy people.

Sean: [00:08:00] Sun’s going down.

Calvin: [00:08:02] It’s beautiful.

Sean: [00:08:03] I just don’t, I don’t like the guilt part that feels like a problem to be solved

Calvin: [00:08:09] I don’t feel the guilt now.

Sean: [00:08:11] in this moment.

Calvin: [00:08:12] In this moment. I actually think what’s interesting is the times I feel the guilt, Elise, and these are some of the times I feel most alive is when I’m connecting one-on-one with someone else and I’m just able to engage with that in a way where the other stuff sort of melts away.

And. It’s some of the most human stuff that I feel, and I think that’s why I can separate from this, this theoretical output guilt issue, which is I think mostly constructed from, you know, pressures that we, that we face from society or the. The conditioning that we’ve had and all these other things that contribute to why high achievers feel guilty when they’re not achieving to their full potential.

But when I’m connecting with someone one-on-one, that truly amounts away, and that’s why I love these types of interactions.

Sean: [00:09:02] Why do you think it melts away.

Calvin: [00:09:07] The work stuff seems silly when you’re sitting next to someone else and talking about real things to me.

Sean: [00:09:13] The work seems silly.

Calvin: [00:09:15] In some ways,

like this is the real work, man.

Sean: [00:09:20] Yeah. It feels this feels important.

Calvin: [00:09:25] Yeah,

Sean: [00:09:27] You know what it is? I think it’s, it’s, it’s the Eisenhower matrix. Are you, are you familiar with. Okay, so important versus urgent. Right. And obviously the things you want to avoid the most are unimportant things that are not urgent, cause they’re just inconsequential.

But where it gets difficult is when you have these urgent things that are in the big picture, not important. Wrestling with the important things that are, well, both urgent and not urgent. You know, because there’s like this right here. Maybe, maybe the quadrant that is meaningful would be the important non-urgent stuff.

This conversation right here, this feels important, but the last thing it feels is urgent.

Calvin: [00:10:20] It’s not urgent.

Sean: [00:10:20] It’s not

Calvin: [00:10:26] I think it’s interesting to put it into that matrix, but when I zoom out, I think some of the, the moments I cherish the most are when I’m talking to people and talking to them in a way that feels like a genuine connection.

Sean: [00:10:42] when you walked into the coffee shop where we were waiting for you and. Well, you know, we’ve met before, in Boise and had coffee. What I, what I like about you is just cause I, I see this, I’m the same way. Like you just immediately go deep, like just immediately, like from the moment you sit down, it’s just straight there.

And I love that. Like, that’s, that’s totally me. I feel like there’s the small talk. And I, I know that there’s an art to this, and there’s, you know, people can argue with like the importance of the dance or whatever, but I’m like, man, let’s just get to the real stuff.

Calvin: [00:11:21] I’ve never been amazing at the dance. I think that goes back to the, some of the. Themes that we’re talking about though is life’s not too short for small talk. There’s definitely a place for small talk, but you know, if I’m going to see you once a year, twice a year, I, I want us to get the most out of that interaction, pick up where we left off and see if we can go even deeper.

And it doesn’t mean we have to, or we can try.

Sean: [00:11:49] So when you have those kinds of interactions with people, the guilt melts away.

Calvin: [00:11:54] I don’t feel that at all.

Sean: [00:11:56] What do you take from that?

Calvin: [00:12:00] I should spend more of my time doing this. I think I, I make time in my life for these types of interactions because of just that. And. I’m not a workaholic in the sense that I spend my entire day working. I do feel that guilt, and I see that that Delta that we’re talking about, but I’ve learned to, give way to the serendipity of life by prioritizing interactions with, you know, people I know on a very deep level and people I know on a more superficial level, but where I see the opportunity to connect.

Sean: [00:12:33] I mean you, you kind of made this happen. Like we didn’t plan this at all. You, you just reached out. We’re, we’re not even in San Diego downtown. We’re actually quite a bit a ways away, but we had already taken the train for some other engagement. You just randomly sent me a message on Instagram and I happened to be exactly where you said you were.

And so we just. Like we were going to take an earlier train, but it doesn’t matter. There’s more, there’s more trains. So we just hung out a little bit, walk down to the beach, got a coffee, and now we’re having this. So like what, what made you reach out.

Calvin: [00:13:13] I think I was about to distract myself on Instagram. I saw that you had posted. New photo and then something triggered in my mind that I thought I had heard that you were in San Diego. And something I’ve learned, especially been traveling for many years, and one of the hard things about traveling is keeping in contact with those people who you’re closest with because everything around you is so exciting.

There’s so much movement and you know, sometimes whether it’s your family or, your good friends from college or whatever it is, it’s hard to keep in contact. And so one thing I’ve learned to do is whenever I think about someone or think about something, I just write them. I don’t make a big deal out of it.

I just say, Hey, I’m thinking about you. Or in your case, Hey, do you want to meet up? And you know, sometimes it works out and other times it doesn’t. And at the end of the day, it’s just me doing what I know leads to a better life for me.

Sean: [00:14:17] I’m still, I’m still not satisfied about like the rest of life being ridden with guilt except for the . His pockets.

how do we solve for the guilt problem?

Calvin: [00:14:39] I think sometimes,

at least for me, life goes in, it goes in phases, and there are times when I’m better at dealing with the Gildan. Other times when I’m not, I think it might be difficult to fully read myself of it for one reason or another. It feels like . For some reason I’m programmed to achieve in this world, and that that’s a gift in that it allows me to give back in bigger ways through that desire to achieve, to work harder.

but there’s downsides of it. And I think this guilt is one of the downsides. And it’s about managing that guilt at the, at the different phases of life. And so in this phase. I think my work to do list is larger than I would want it to be, but I’m learning to figure out how can I be comfortable with never having that list complete because it never will be complete ever.

Sean: [00:15:46] I realized that, not that long ago cause. The, the never ending list is what I used to justify my workaholism working till 9:00 PM 10:00 PM 11:00 PM because there’s always more work to be done. Yeah. And somehow it took, I don’t know how, I didn’t realize that even when I worked super late, I never finished all the work.

So if there’s always going to be more work and I’m never going to get it all done and there’s still going to be more for tomorrow, why don’t I define what I want my day to look like. When do I want to end my work day? When do I want to stop? And you know, I felt like I couldn’t cause there’s more to do.

But at one point I decided, you know what? I want to spend more time with my wife. You know, I want to not just be in here all the time. I want to have time to exercise and be healthy. And so I just decided I’m going to stop my work day at 5:00 PM, go on a walk with Lacey, and somehow I still got all the work done I needed because that was the amount of time I gave myself.

And I moved it up to 3:00 PM and I still got all my work done because that was how much time I gave myself.

Calvin: [00:16:54] Right now, I think timebox. Is helpful. This actually reminds me of a broader life idea that, is expressed from very beautifully and calm and children’s book, when things fall apart. But there’s this, this was transformative for me, which is why I’m bringing it up. But. There’s this kind of feeling that, you know, once you get, it’s not just with work, the to do list.

It’s once you get your finances in order, it’s once you get the relationship, it’s once you get the work done, it’s once you move to the right place, it’s once a weather’s better. There’s always these little things that once they’re done, you’re going to feel complete or whole. And the reality is that that list is always growing.

And so things. Never fully come together. They come together and they fall apart and they come together and they fall apart. And this, for some reason, this idea kind of helped me become incredibly comfortable with the general uncertainty of my life, especially just frequently traveling. There’s always this sense that you don’t have enough stability.

There’s excitement, there’s other things going on.

There’s all this potential.

Sean: [00:18:01] Is it like a pulling force.

Calvin: [00:18:05] It’s definitely a force, but what I’ve realized is that the things will never come together in the way that I expect them to in my mind. But my mind will always grasp onto this idea that they will. And once I let that go. All right? I felt immensely lighter in my ability to bear uncertainty and to feel good about it, to feel relatively normal in day to day interactions with uncertainty.

It evolved immensely because it never comes together.

Sean: [00:18:39] Uncertainty. Is that a kind of discomfort? So it sounds like you’re describing a sense of being comfortable being uncomfortable.

Calvin: [00:18:51] Yeah. Or not knowing the answer to how things will play out, whether it’s in work or romance or, finances.

Sean: [00:19:03] Being okay. Not knowing.

Calvin: [00:19:06] Yeah. A lot of this comes back to, I mean, Pema Chodron is a Tibetan Buddhist, I think she’s 80 plus, so she’s got some years and probably a lot of wisdom, in this, in this realm. But it’s, it really is about being, this, I think is a way to be more present. Because you’re not constantly worrying about something else happening for you to feel okay, you’re okay when things are not okay, you’re also okay when they’re almost complete.

Sean: [00:19:38] You sound like a writer? Do you write.

Calvin: [00:19:43] I do. I have a blog. I haven’t written any articles in awhile. I one day hope to. I want to write a book, actually multiple books. And you know, at this point in my writing creative life, what I can prioritize is a weekly newsletter. It’s not perfect. It’s my best every week, but it keeps me accountable to writing something.

And in this period where other parts of my life and work are taking up more time. It gives me, you know, a brief two to three hour outlet where I can express my ideas to the written word. And I try to find ways in my work to do that as well. But I, I love books and I love words. And every bookshop I walk by, even if I’ve seen the same books 25 times, I don’t know.

There’s just something about the physical kind of book and the way that people come together. And. And write about their experiences in life and all kinds of different ways that I find beautiful in a way, to just expand my understanding of the world.

Sean: [00:20:52] And you want to contribute to that pool.

Calvin: [00:20:55] I do. I do. I have, I’ve had it. I think I’m both fortunate and unfortunate to have had a lot of, what some people could say, bad things happen in my life, whether it’s deaths or I grew up very poor.

And I’ve kind of done my best to elevate my myself and then the people around me.

What I’ve noticed is that some of those experiences in those stories, when, when I tell them in the right way or at the right time for people, it’s very helpful and I’d love to have almost like a single source of truth where I communicate that in a way where it can.

Reach more people because at my core, and I see myself as kind of a vessel to help people, others live a more conscious and fulfilling life and to share what I can. I’m flawed in so many ways, but there are certain parts of my experience that I think could, could help others, and and writing is the medium through which I hope to at least start with that.

Sean: [00:21:57] It’s rewarding.

Calvin: [00:22:02] It is rewarding the feeling. I’ll tell you, one of the best feelings I have is when you, it can even just be a short little story or a little nugget of wisdom or just something and you’ve put it together in a clear and concise way. And, and you know that at least with some percentage of people who read it the right time for them, cause that’s a large part of advice, things on at the right time.

It’s going to have an impact and you created this thing. And I love after, you know, writing a little nugget or an article or something to, to go for a short little run. And there’s just something about that combination that makes life feel very enriching for me.

Sean: [00:22:47] So you write and then you run. Now is this like as a way of letting the writing sink in, or is this like a pre editing thing where you kind of let the words. You know, tumble in your mind and you come back and, and work it, or like, you know how, how are you approaching that?

Calvin: [00:23:07] This is when the piece is complete.

Sean: [00:23:09] Okay, so you’re sitting with it, so to speak.

Calvin: [00:23:12] Right? actually I’m kind of letting it go. I’ve, maybe I’ve, I’ve hit publish or I’ve scheduled the newsletter to go out and this is me releasing myself.

Sean: [00:23:23] liked this as an antidote to the anxiety you might otherwise get. Once you publish something, what are people gonna think? You know, you’re, you’re sitting there like refreshing, you know? Did anyone reply? Yeah.

Calvin: [00:23:37] So I don’t, I don’t feel that at all. And it’s because she let it go. I’ve done well. I did my work. and.

Sean: [00:23:43] What is that work.

Calvin: [00:23:46] I communicated the idea or set of ideas that I wanted to, and I did my best. sometimes I wish I could edit it five more times, but I hit publish anyways and I let it go because there’s always, you can always refine an idea or do it again. To me, it’s not about the external response. I’m, I’m very grateful when when people reach out to me and they say, your words have touched me in some way or.

Inspired me or whatever it is. I think that’s amazing, but I build my kind of internal system around I, I put the work out there. I did what I kind of felt called to do in that moment, and the run is just this way to, to let that go. And going back to the concept of guilt, the last thing I feel on that run is guilt.

I actually feel freedom and I think it’s the freedom from having done the work. And. And put the time in.

Sean: [00:24:44] I love that. Have you thought about podcasting? Cause I know before I pulled these little lavalier microphones out of my bag and plugged it into the iPhone, I asked you if you listened to podcasts, sounded like not so much. and, and whether you’ve been a guest on a podcast and sounded like not so much so.

I mean, when I hear you, like I said, you sound like a writer. You could transcribe what you’re saying and it would read well, I think, and, and you just have this, this kind of like calm demeanor, like easy to listen to, voice. It’s very thoughtful. I just think it’s rather conducive to the podcasting format.

And I want to know if you’ve thought about that. Yeah.

Calvin: [00:25:31] I’ve definitely, I thought a lot about podcasts. I’m not a huge lesson or in podcasts in general, I  the main content I consumer is in books. I have had strange feedback from people that I have a calm, soothing voice that would be good for a podcast, which is a strange thing to hear because, I don’t think you hear your own voice correctly.

But I guess the biggest limitation for me there is getting, getting started and creating something that I would be okay releasing to the world with writing. There is a little journey of, you know, is this good enough? And eventually I got enough wraps where I was comfortable producing work that was imperfect and sharing it and the podcast format, there’s just little things I need to learn and.

I think a lot of imperfections and, and things along the way. And this year I’d love to, launch some sort of audio experiment.

Sean: [00:26:27] Yeah. When you say little things to learn, do you mean technological.

Calvin: [00:26:32] Yeah. I don’t think anything is a rocket science, but just, you know, going back to this idea of guilt. I already have so much on the to do list. If I, if I try to put a podcast on that, you know, what’s, how am I going to do that? That’s, that’s a big question I have. I love the idea of having a medium where I can be effective or the message can spread better.

I just, I guess there’s a limitation to getting started. For me.

Sean: [00:27:05] W what is that though? I mean, right now we’re recording this on my iPhone with a little lovelier plugged in. I’ve got one adapter because we’ve . We’ve split it to use two microphones, but you’d just need one plugged directly into your phone. You find them. I mean, I guarantee the vast majority of people listening to this would love to hear something from you on a like weekly, probably daily.

They’d probably listen to a five minute podcast from you daily, just based on what they’ve heard, let alone. Weekly, and I guarantee they also don’t care about the production. Like I’m coming from someone who has the studio set up with like a rack Mount of preamps and processors and like quality microphones.

Now we’re, we’re sitting outside in this garden, you know, people walking by, it’s not perfect, but people can get something out of the content. This is my way of encouraging you.

Calvin: [00:28:05] No, I appreciate that. I think some of it is, some of it’s fear driven. I mean, fear of adding this thing to the to do list, fear of, you know, producing things that no one listens to. I don’t have a big audience or anything that is going to listen to my podcast. And,

Sean: [00:28:21] Well, where where, where’s your newsletter, for instance? What’s your website?

Calvin: [00:28:25] it’s Calvin rosser.com.

Sean: [00:28:27] R. O. S. S. E. R.

Calvin: [00:28:29] Yup. And the newsletter is called life reimagined. I mean, you can sign up on a bunch of places on the site and it’s a weekly Sunday newsletter with, you know, helpful ideas that can, that can maybe get you thinking about different areas of your life in a, in a productive way that you can incorporate.

Sean: [00:28:47] That newsletter is a commitment, but how do you feel sending that out? How do you feel when someone replies to an email.

Calvin: [00:28:54] I think it’s, I think it’s great. I think it’s great when someone replies and it’s, it’s a nice thing. I’ve, I’ve tried to separate myself from the response to the newsletter though. That makes sense. Right? And.

Sean: [00:29:08] You know, sorry to interrupt, but on that note, I don’t even check the download numbers. I have no idea. Years ago I checked and we had millions of downloads in aggregate. That was like years ago. I just don’t check anymore. because it does, it doesn’t matter. Ultimately, like someone, someone saying, Hey, I, I listened.

It helped me, you know, it changed my life or whatever. Like, I, sorry, I say that like it doesn’t matter. That’s, that’s what matters. Whatever someone says to me in person that, that it helped them, not some number or some counter, you know.

Calvin: [00:29:42] I, I completely agree.

Sean: [00:29:44] All the, all that to say, I think, I think you should podcast and I, I wouldn’t worry about the numbers. I w I would make it as difficult as possible for you to check the analytics on it and just commit to once a week, a five minute thought, three minute thought thoughts from Calvin. Yeah. Solo and that, like my shows never did interview shows.

I’ve done hundreds were, were in the mid four hundreds of episodes, been going seven years, never did interview shows because I’m like, and maybe we should take this mobile rig and start heading out since the garden’s closing. Right. but never did interview shows because I thought, you know, like what I was saying a moment ago, I like how you just go straight to the deep stuff.

That’s how I want to be. So I thought, Hey. Get to know me, get, you know, get to know the host and then, then we can just go straight to the deep stuff. Cause I felt like interviews, if I were to do interviews and actually I’m learning something right now as I say this, which I’ll share in a second. If I was going to do interviews, has to be surface level and like, like, Hey, how are you?

How are you? Small talk, the weather’s great, you know, and like 30 minutes later, maybe we get to some of the deep stuff, but most of it is this regurgitated like you’ve heard it on all the other shows. They’ve been on stuff. Right. And I’m realizing right now, well, first of all, I kind of abandoned that for this sabbatical year.

Like, Hey, you know what? I’m, I’m going to record conversations with people. I want to learn from people. I want to listen. I want to share that, and I’m not going to care about the production quality. You know, I’m not going to worry about, Oh, this show has never been, this podcast has never been an interview show.

Like I’m just, I’m just letting all of that go. Right. And I’m realizing now I don’t have to play by the interview format that everyone else does. Where it’s like, hi, hello. You know, introducing someone on the surface like. Surface level stuff. I can go back and record an intro that says, Hey, this is Calvin roster.

This is a, you know, right. Or, heck, maybe I don’t even have to do that. Maybe I can break all the rules. And this podcast starts the wrong way where nobody knows who Calvin is and nobody like, and they just discover it and it’s this, it, it sounds as serendipitous as it was.

Calvin: [00:32:01] Right? And that’s kind of how life works anyways. It’s not so structured.

Sean: [00:32:07] You know what, I’m going to do that. I’m just going to leave this as is no intro. There you go. And we’re walking out of the garden now down down the sidewalk, and we’re just going to end the podcast right there. Cause we’ve got to go back to the train anyway. And this is how it happened.

Calvin: [00:32:26] It’s beautiful, man.

Sean: [00:32:27] Cool. Thanks.

Thanks for the conversation, Kelvin.

Calvin: [00:32:30] Sure. Hopefully it was useful.

Sean: [00:32:32] Yeah, it was fun.