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Money can be a touchy subject. When you work a job, your employer often forbids you from discussing it. When you sell products or services, you struggle to put a price on them that lets you make sales… but also lets you make money.

You might find yourself thinking, “I wish I could get paid what I’m worth!” But how do you even know what that is?

To be clear, we’re not talking about your personal worth; you can’t put a value on that.

When we talk about getting paid what you’re worth, we’re really talking about finding a balance.

There’s one thing that determines what your product or services are worth (and if you’re an employee, you’re still selling a service!):

  • The value to your customer.

Aligning that with your needs is the key to getting paid what you’re worth. Today, we’re talking about how to find that alignment.

Links and Resources Mentioned
Episode Transcript

Note: This transcript of the episode was machine-generated and has not been edited for correctness. It’s provided for your convenience when searching. Please excuse any errors.

Dan: [00:00:00] When someone talks about getting paid what they’re worth, it’s not an intrinsic worth because I mean, human beings, intrinsic worth is not quantifiable. You can’t say that Ben is worth $10 and I’m worth, let’s say 20 or $30 for one thing. Ben would be priced in us dollars and I’d be priced in Canadian dollars, so I’ve got a disadvantage there.

Ben: [00:00:17] I mean, is the U S dollar still ahead of the Canadian dollar? I don’t know.

Dan: [00:00:21] For now.

Ben: [00:00:40] Good morning, Dan.

Dan: [00:00:42] Good morning, Ben, how are you doing?

Ben: [00:00:45] I’m doing fantastic. How are you.

Dan: [00:00:47] I’m doing really well. I heard heard you’ve been into some intermittent fasting lately.

Ben: [00:00:54] Yeah, yeah. It’s, of all of the things that I’ve done in the past to manage my wait and try to have healthier eating habits, it seems to be the most effective. I’m not a person with a lot of self discipline when it comes to food. And so restriction, you know, calorie restriction and. Just eating like the right kinds of foods and not letting myself have the kind of stuff I want and really enjoy what, what ends up happening is I spend, you know, like maybe a week or two doing that and then I just go crazy.

So with the intermittent fasting, I find that . Hi. I tend to eat a little bit less of the bad stuff, but I’m still allowed to anytime I want as long as it’s within that window and that works. That works for me. I tell you what, I don’t know. I don’t know if we’ll ever get to a place where B, because I feel like the diet industry  is all about like it.

It leans really heavily on. People actually having the self discipline to follow these programs, and I think that’s why the statistics are what they are, that most people who go on a diet fail is because nobody’s really come up with a solid plan for solving that part of it. The

Dan: [00:02:23] Your saw solving the problem of self-discipline.

Ben: [00:02:26] right.

So that’s so, so my approach is, has been like, I just need to, I’m going to keep trying things. I’m always going to, like, I might fall off the horse and I’m not going to beat myself up about it. Ugh. You know, I can always get back on, but I have to find something that I can sustain with the amount of self discipline I have when it comes to food, which is not very much.

Dan: [00:02:56] I hear you. Well, I’m, I mean, the goal, we sort of talked about this in the last show right now with the, the fitness brand idea that you’ve been playing around with as the goal is really to find, find some system that will work for you perpetually. Whereas the problem with the problem with a lot of diet, a lot of diets that I see.

Yeah. I don’t know if it’s a problem with the diet or with people’s. Goals is that, you know, people are thinking short term. And so, so the problem with a, a really restrictive diet is it’s not so much that people have to develop the self-discipline. It’s that people are not fundamentally like wired to have that kind of self discipline.

So  the more, the more discipline a restrictive diet requires, the more likely you won’t be able to sustain it, which is why most people. Don’t sustain, don’t

Ben: [00:03:48] I know. I know it’s kind of like a joke, but I, I really do. Like I would pay, I have somebody follow me around and like slap food out of my hand that I shouldn’t eat, like that kind of that kind of just like ever present accountability. I don’t know if, I don’t know if that’s the answer. If someone could solve the problem of self discipline and customize a diet that works for.

You know the individual and combines those two, I think they’d have something really special. And that’s something, you know, like that would be, that would be worth a lot to people.

Dan: [00:04:29] Yeah. You’re saying you, you would, you’d probably be willing to pay good money for such a thing.

Ben: [00:04:35] Yeah. If, if, if I had the money, I would absolutely.

Dan: [00:04:41] I see.

Ben: [00:04:42] You know, because then it kind of. Then it’s something I don’t have to, I don’t have to be responsible for. Somebody else can.

Dan: [00:04:49] Right.

Ben: [00:04:50] That’s worth a lot to me.

Dan: [00:04:54] Well that’s good. So because now is the ideal timeframe to tell you about this new system that I’ve developed? No, I’m just, I’m just kidding. I’m kidding. I don’t, I haven’t solved the self discipline problem because I think that saying all we really need to do is solve this problem of people not having self-discipline is kind of like how.

You know, people would get along better if we would just solve the problem of people fighting, like fighting with each other and disagreeing about stuff like, you know, you, there’s this thing called human nature, Ben, but I, I don’t want to take us too far down that trail because you, you had, you were doing an admirable job of segwaying from intermittent fasting into the topic of today’s show.

Ben: [00:05:32] I, you know, I do what I can.

Dan: [00:05:34] I just want to make sure you get the credit for that because, yeah. To today we’re, we’re talking about getting paid what you’re worth.

Ben: [00:05:40] Yeah. So the joke here is we’re, we’re trying to. Put forth some, you know, product that doesn’t exist that solves the problem of human nature and lack of self discipline when it comes to food and also as a good diet option that I’m, am I doing that thing again where I’m describing the joke and people actually get it?

We can move

Dan: [00:06:04] You, you are doing that thing and the, the way you know that is that you started out by saying the jokes. Here is you don’t ever want to start a sentence like that.

Ben: [00:06:13] So I really love this topic. I love it. Anytime we get a chance to talk about it, because aye. I always want to help people understand

how to figure out what they’re worth and to understand what that means and what it doesn’t mean. Like what. What is your self worth and what is, or not self worth, but what, what is your product or your service worth and what factors into that and what doesn’t factor into that?

I think there’s still a lot of confusion around it and we just, you know, we need to be reminded often, so I’m glad we’re talking about this today.

Dan: [00:06:57] Yeah. It’s definitely a topic that’s come up on the podcast before, you know, it’s, it’s kind of one of those perennial Sean West topics, but I always feel like it’s never, it’s never a bad thing to come back to a complex topic that is going to be important to a lot of people that are trying to do. You know, they’re trying to, they’re trying to maybe run a business, maybe they’re selling products, maybe they’re selling services.

And I mean, you know, we’ll come, we’ll come back to this later probably, but even if you have a quote, normal job, you’re sort of, you know, trading your time for money. I mean, this still applies, right? There’s still an idea of getting paid what you’re worth. And. It. You sort of alluded to this before, like w w when someone talks about getting paid what they’re worth, it’s not an intrinsic worth, right?

Because I mean, human beings, intrinsic worth is not quantifiable. You can’t say that, you know, Ben is worth $10 and I’m worth, let’s say 20 or $30 you know, is it, that’s not how it works.

Ben: [00:08:04] Right. And, and this is, I, I feel like we kind of take this to different directions. We can

Dan: [00:08:10] For one. For one thing, Ben would be priced in us dollars and I’d be priced in Canadian dollars, so I’ve got a disadvantage there.

Ben: [00:08:18] Correct. I mean, is the U S dollar still ahead of the Canadian dollar? I don’t know.

Dan: [00:08:24] For now.

Ben: [00:08:25] For now. So, so people take this in a couple of different directions. I think sometimes we’ll attach our personal self worth two, whatever it is, and

and our sense of self worth, especially if, especially if we have some underlying self worth issues, we will extend that to whatever we create.

Because what we create. Is a product that came from us. And so

what we think of as our worth extends to those things that come from us. And so we’ll, we’ll maybe tend to undervalue those things. And then I think the other direction we’ll take it sometimes is maybe, there’s kind of this inflated sense of what something is worth.

And it’s like, well, I made this thing and it’s awesome. And, and. It didn’t exist before and now it exists. And I made it. And it’s, it should be just to anybody. It should be worth a lot.

And an either one of those things really is coming from the wrong foundation. You can’t, just by virtue virtue of the fact that you made something with skill and, it serves a purpose.

The, the existence of that thing by itself without actually being used and, and made functional doesn’t necessarily have some arbitrary price tag on it. And your personal self worth and the things that you make are not an extension of your personal sense of self worth. So I think, I think both of those things are things that we need to be mindful of in the way that we think about how valuable our products, our time, our S, our services are.

And, and really it’s orienting from what and and which we’ll really dive into in the show. It’s orienting from what we think about what our product or services worth. To what the customer thinks and, and, and not just what the customer thinks with the actual value of our product or service to the customer.

Dan: [00:10:51] Yeah. Both. Both the things you brought up, even though they’re opposite. Sides of a spectrum. They come from the same problem, which is making an assumption about what other people value, right? Like the, the thing where you don’t charge enough money for your services because you don’t feel good and like you, you don’t feel like you deserve, Oh, I could never be worth this much and thinking that I made this thing and it’s great.

Therefore it should be worth. you know, a lot of money, but let’s slot in arbitrary numbers. they both come from the same place, which is assuming that you can . You know, how other people value the work that you do. And the, we’re going to come to this during the course of the show. You know, you, you want to go through a process to discover what other people, how other people value your work.

But value is subjective. That’s the big. The point that we want to make, right? Is value is subjective. So you, you, if you make something and you think it’s worth $100 or you make something and you think it’s worth $100,000 it’s all going to depend on the context of the consumer of that thing.

Ben: [00:12:08] There was a piece of toast that had, I dunno if it was like. Mother, Mary or, or the likeness of Jesus somehow in the toast.

Dan: [00:12:22] Okay.

Ben: [00:12:23] I don’t, I don’t know. Like, is this a real story? I want to look it up now, but I haven’t.

Dan: [00:12:28] No, don’t do it.

Ben: [00:12:28] I want to say that now. I’m not going to, I want to say that, you know, somebody sold that on eBay for

hundreds if not thousands of dollars.

Somebody, maybe somebody in the chat can like look that up and verify it. But you know, like, stuff like that happens, those kinds of transactions happen all the time there. I, I went on to guitar center’s website and I was looking at guitars. I’m a musician. I love playing. It’s hard as, and, and so I was looking at like all of these beautiful guitars and I changed the filter to price from high to low.

And. The first page of results did not have a single guitar that was less than $10,000

and if you think about like the material that the guitar is, the materials that the guitars are made from, I mean that’s, that’s easily not $10,000 worth of materials, but people, people will pay that.

Dan: [00:13:37] Yeah. A classic example of this is the mechanical watch industry. Where mechanical watches keep let never, nevermind that. You don’t need a watch cause you already have a smart phone. But like mechanical watches by definition, do a worse job of keeping time than quartz watches do. However, you can much more easily find a mechanical watch priced at five figures, then you can a Casio, even though the Casio is, is along one axis a better.

Watch, right? But people, but value is subjective and people pay for all of these intangible things there. There’s also this idea there. There’s an idea that just like some, something being expensive can be its own value, right? Like if you are in a social position slash belong to a culture where signaling material wealth is important.

Then the fact that something is, is the most expensive, like the, the fact that that was the most expensive guitar or wristwatch you could buy is its own value. Like the fact that it’s that expensive is what makes it valuable, which can be a weird idea if you’re not part of that sort of culture, but it J it just goes to show how subjective value is.

Ben: [00:14:58] That’s the thing. Value is a not just monetary there. And that’s the question you have to ask is how do customers value this? Did they value it because it, Mmm. Reminds them of something in their past, like is there some sentimental value? Do they value it because of, like you said, signaling status that they value it because it makes them look to their competitors.

Like they’re keeping up with the latest trends in marketing. You know, like. Getting, getting at the the heart of what your customer values is. One of the most important things you can do when it comes to determining what your product or service is worth to that customer.

Because it’s D, it really is different for everybody.

Dan: [00:16:02] Yeah. Well, there’s something interesting there because, we, we talk about, in a way, we have this system, we have a course called value based pricing and we’re going to get into some of the things in there, I’m sure, because it touches on this, but that, that course is a clickable to a certain subset of finding value, right?

Because like. When we talk about that process, we talk about specifically selling customized services that have a monetary value to the client, and that’s, so that’s one form of defining value. One way to define value is this will make you money or this will prevent you from losing. Money, but as you pointed out, Ben, people value things for other, let’s say, less tangible reasons as well.

Like that it makes them feel good or it reminds them of something that’s important to them. In some of those cases, of course, you, you may find you may have a more difficult time finding out the value, discovering the value than in others. Right. Which is why, you know, when we talk about finding value, we talk about the value based pricing model.

It only applies to some of those situations, but, but today we’re having a little bit of a broader discussion of what makes, what makes your work valuable.

Ben: [00:17:27] So this is Ann. I’m just kind of throwing. This idea out there. I wonder if you could, if you, if you followed this, the string all the way to the root, if you could determine some monetary value or some, you know, like whatever the, the underlying value is of, of a given thing. So if, if it isn’t about status.

That, and that way of signaling that is relationship building and relationship building does have value because it opens you up to opportunities wherein you could get better connections and ultimately have access to customers and make more money, or you know, like so all of that, all of that to say it’s, it’s really just a question more than it is a statement.

Can one trace things back to w some common route with every form of subjective value. Now I’m going to completely undermine what I just said and, and say that I think that in most cases, if you’re having to ask that question. In order to try to determine the value of your product to the client, you’re doing extra work that you probably shouldn’t be doing in the first place.

I think the kind of clients you want to be working with and the kind of people you want to be working with are people who already have a solid understanding of the monetary value of a thing for them. That doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t value or you can’t. Position your product based on some other untangible intangible value, but it’s much more difficult because you can’t, like, you can’t work with numbers and you can’t do calculations.

So anyways, I’m just, I’m just kinda throwing those thoughts out there.

Dan: [00:19:36] Yeah. We, we’ve talked, we’ve talked before about the product spectrum where you’ve got products that make money  approximate, make money for people and products that don’t, the products that don’t work. We sometimes called nice to have products. And then you’ve got people who have money and people who don’t have money.

So you can draw a little graph with four different quadrants and you can assign the product or service you’re creating to one of them. You can be creating things that make money for people who have money. And that’s the, it’s not the, it’s not that that’s the only way to do business or that it’s necessarily the best way, but it is the easiest way to make money.

Right? Because you’ve got people who can afford to pay and you’re giving them something that will let them make more money. Well, them assigning a high value to that product is a no brainer at that point, right? If you get to the point where you’re selling someone to selling, you’re selling something to someone for $100 that’ll make them $1,000.

Of course they’ll buy it. Why wouldn’t they? Even if they don’t have a hundred bucks right now, they’ll go ask their friend for 100 bucks because if they stand to make that return, they’ll do it in any of the other quadrants. You can still do business, but you’re going to have a more difficult time. If you have a product that makes money, but you’re selling it to someone who doesn’t already have money.

I guess I just gave the example that they could borrow the money, but it will be more difficult to close that deal if you’re selling products that are nice to have. To people who have money, they might still buy it, but you might have a harder time assigning a price to it. You might have a harder time selling it.

If you have products that are nice to have and you’re selling them to people who don’t have money, now you’re going to have a very difficult time. You know, getting them, getting them to pay and getting them to pay well for the product.

Ben: [00:21:34] I think, I think you can a Ford in that quadrant to talk about people who borrow money as just having access to money and access to money is not just like, I have liquid funds that I can. You know

Dan: [00:21:50] Yeah, that’s true.

Ben: [00:21:51] you use right now to buy. I can borrow it from somebody. I have really good credit and I can take out a loan because it’s a good investment like

It really like those people in that quadrant. They have some form of access to money and I wanted, I want to get into this because you talked about the like they pay $100 and they know they’re going to make a thousand. I think that’s a really important point there because anytime, anytime we make a purchase, we’re taking on some form of risk and, and I’m going to explain what I mean by that.

So I bought a camera that I use every day practically every day to film something. And I risked, I think at the time it was 2,500 of my dollars against the, the belief and the hope that this camera would work for me and there was a possibility that I would spend that money  the camera wouldn’t work or it wouldn’t function the way that I needed it to.

And then some of that risk is mitigated by the fact that there are return policies, satisfaction guarantees, that kind of thing. And so I was willing to take that risk because some of that risk was mitigated. but even, even down to this simplest things like the kind of silverware that you, that you purchase, like you, you take a risk spending money on silverware, hoping that it’s not going to.

Like, it’s not going to bend or break or you know, and it’s going to work. And like, it’s not coded with some fake synthetic material that, so I, I guess that’s like, I’ve illustrated my point. Everything’s a risk

and people who have access to money


are familiar or are okay with the risk. Either because you’ve developed a certain level of trust with them or you have a reputation or , you sell a product that is generally low risk, or you mitigate the risk in some other way.

or maybe the risk doesn’t matter to them because they’ve got so much money. You know, like there are a lot of, there are a lot of different factors, but, but I think that’s, that’s a really important idea to consider is that. If someone has access to the money and they’re okay with the risk because it’s a good investment because they’ll make money back.

That’s a, that’s a really great formula and those are the kind of customers you’re looking for.

Dan: [00:24:44] What occurs to me is that, you know, I mean, access to money also, it helps. It helps insulin insulate you against risk. Because if you have, let’s think about products that are just a nice to have and they’re not going to make you. They’re not even necessarily gonna make you a return. Let’s say it’s a piece of artwork.

You know you’re going to put it on your wall and it’s priced at $500 I mean, it’s an a, you know, it’s an original to some people, $500 is a lot of money, and so if they buy that thing and then they don’t like it, you know, it turns out they might not be willing to take that risk. If. To a different person.

$500 isn’t a lot of money. They might buy the thing on a whim, and then if they don’t, if they don’t really like it, it doesn’t matter that much, you know? Because they’re not, the $500 is not as meaningful to them that this is, this is another component of, of understanding value is. That amounts. You know, we talked about how value is subjective.

Well, that applies to money as well, right? Like when, when I say $500 each of us is going to have a different thought about that, right? Like to some people, $500 is like, man, if I had an extra $500 I could put food on my table. And other people, $500 is an, is not really a relevant amount of money that they have to spend a lot of time thinking about.

those two people are going to value things differently.

Ben: [00:26:23] I’m trying to, I’m trying to think of like a ratio calculation, but,

so for me, in my, you know, financial situation, let’s say that, and this is, this is still somewhat hypothetical, but like, let’s say I had a $100,000 a year, an income. You know, spending $5 on something is generally not a big deal. I didn’t, I don’t really think about it a lot.

And, to the point that like there are some subscriptions or things that I’ve signed up for or just purchased because it was like, it’s, you know, it’s $5. It may as well be a dollar. Like it doesn’t matter. And. And that’s, that’s kind of like my personal experience with that specific quantity. So you multiply that $100,000 and let’s say you multiply that by a hundred well, let’s see if I get this right, this 10 million, right?

Dan: [00:27:25] We can’t do math on the show, Ben. It’s against the rules, so just  just roll with it.

Ben: [00:27:30] I think that’s right. 10 million. You multiply five by a hundred that’s 500 so they’re there not a small number of people out there who have $10 million or that make, you know, like some really large amount of money to wear $500 is, is similar to them.

Dan: [00:27:54] Is it equivalent to $5?

Ben: [00:27:56] Yeah. It’s, it’s just like, ah, whatever.

Dan: [00:27:59] I th I feel like we all, we all have a line and the line. It depends a lot on psychology, but it also depends on like what our income is. The line moves over time. Like when I was a kid, my, my parents, my parents gave me $20 a month as an allowance. Right. And so,

Ben: [00:28:18] a lot

Dan: [00:28:20] I mean, maybe it’s a lot.

Ben: [00:28:23] back then too,

Dan: [00:28:24] I, I’d say back, back then it was about, it was like a pack of collectible star Wars cards every week, which is probably what I spent it on most of the time.

Ben: [00:28:32] Right?

Dan: [00:28:33] But that being the case then to me, that $5 like a $5 pack of cards, that was a quarter of my entire months. That was a quarter of the money I was going to see that month.

So  you know, if I had to decide, do I spend $5 on some food on, you know, on the, on like a treat, like on a treat or on these cards, that’s a real decision. Now I’m fortunate to be in a position where like, yeah, I don’t think about $5 like if I decided to buy a coffee on my walk today or not, I spend maybe 20 seconds making that decision because having an extra coffee one way or the other is not going to have an impact on my life, on my lifestyle.

Like at the end of the month, I’m not going to be going, I wish I hadn’t had that latte because now I can’t pay my rent. And like I said, you know, like not, not everyone is in that position. But then other people, you know, like you said, I mean there are people with $10 million. And to them it’s potentially like, well I, I already have my apartment in Manhattan.

I’m thinking of also renting an apartment in San Francisco cause I spend a lot of time there. And. If they rent an apartment in San Francisco for a few months and then decide they don’t want it, it doesn’t really bother them that they were paying double rent in two of the most expensive cities in the United States for a couple months.

Cause it ha it just doesn’t have an impact on their bottom line.

Ben: [00:30:01] Right. And that’s so, so far, I hope you’re picking up on the trend that everything that we’ve been talking about when it comes to the value of your product has been all about the . Person or people who are pertinent or were mates making the purchase, what they, how they value money, what they think the value of their money is, what, what things they value, whether or not they have access to money.

Like all of those things are questions about the person doing the buying and not about your product.

Now your product does come into play when it comes to the question of. What can a person who has access to money do with your product to achieve their goals? But even that really is a question about them because it’s, can this person use my product or service two, achieve their desired outcome?

and not meaning, not meaning does your product work, but do they. Have the knowledge and the skill they need to be able to use it effectively. So, for example, if you, if you make videos and you do like commercials and video campaigns for Mmm. For brands that run online ads, do they have the infrastructure to take those videos that you create for them and actually use them effectively.

In an ad campaign in such a way that would actually get them a return on their investment. And this I, I don’t know, did we get into the mom and pop thing or was that the pre show.

Dan: [00:31:53] That that was, that was in our secret show before the pre show, so we can bring it in now. You ban. Basically said, if you have a little mom and pop shop and they, they’re doing some advertising on YouTube, on the, you know, the doing like content marketing on their YouTube channel, right? And their channel only has 300 subscribers.

I, if I understood correctly, you were sort of making the point that even if they hired like David Fincher or Ridley Scott to make their commercial, it would be like an incredible commercial, of course, right? Because those guys are some of the best, best directors in the world, but it wouldn’t really make that much of a difference to them.

Cause they only have 300 subscribers.

Ben: [00:32:31] Yeah. And, and so it’s not, it’s not that the commercial isn’t

amazing. It’s not that the commercial isn’t effective. It’s not that the commercial in the right hands wouldn’t perform magnificently and make someone a lot of money. It’s that for the wrong client.

They, they can’t leverage all of that value because they don’t have the reach and they don’t have the means.

They don’t have the influence. And,

and that can, that can become, a question of like, is that, is it your responsibility as the person who’s doing the selling? Is it your responsibility to make sure that those things are in place? And I would say no, but. There is something that happens in the discovery process when you’re trying to determine value that ends up uncovering some of those things.

And so if you’re doing well and, and I dunno, like one could argue that if your questionnaire is engineered correctly, if it’s designed correctly, you’d probably end up filtering out some of these mom and pop shops because you know, to ask for a specific things like, do you have. Do you have a team that runs AB testing on ads for you so that you can, I dunno if you’d ask something that

Dan: [00:33:55] Well, let, well, let’s hope, Ben, you’re bringing in all kinds of things, and I just want to make sure that we. We clarify.

Ben: [00:34:02] yeah. Well, I just, I, I wanted to finish this because I, I, I will bring it back in. So when you’re trying to determine whether or not something is valuable to the customer. One of the questions that you, that you do ask, like one of the ways that you do discover that is by determining whether or not they would be able to use it in a way that would help them reach their goals.

And so if a mom and pop shop wants to

reach, you know, 500 new customers.

And that’s going to end up resulting in a lifetime value of an additional $5,000 a year. You know, that’s completely different from

a much larger company with better resources. Who could take that same, that same commercial, that same product, and turn it into something that, that makes them $5 million a year.

Dan: [00:35:11] Right? I wanna I wanna organize a couple of these things for people just just in case they’re not as familiar. Cause a lot of what you’re talking about. it, it comes out of our course value based pricing, which you can check if you’re not familiar with it. But the, you know, this is basically a system for doing client work.

And a big part of it, as the name implies, has to do with discovering the value of your services too. Your client. So Ben brought up, you know, things like a questionnaire and and things like a value discovery process, which is this whole, this whole process that’s discussed in great detail in the course, which has to do with discovering.

Monetary value of your, of your service to the client. And the reason that this is complicated is because among other things, you really can’t ask people how much is this worth to you? Because they, they probably don’t know and they might not want to tell you. So instead, there’s this process that you go through.

Now, the, a big part of. Value based pricing, honestly, is making sure that you only work with the right clients. A big part of this becomes filtering out the wrong clients. Right. So you were touching on this when you mentioned, are you responsible for making sure the client has the infrastructure in place to take advantage of your services?

And you said PR? No, I mean, you’re not responsible for the client’s infrastructure, but you would be responsible for not working with a client. If they’re not in a position to realize the value of your services. So again, you know, to, to make the point, I brought up the example of famous directors who I’m sure are reimbursed, you know, in the millions of dollars for their services.

Th those directors are not responsible for running our mom and pop shops, company. But they would be responsible for saying, if, if a mom and pop shop somehow went to David Fincher and said, can you do a commercial for me? I would argue he is responsible for saying, guys, I love what you’re doing with your mom and pop shop, but you’re like, you’re not at a point to make use of this, right?

Like, I’m, I’m going to charge you $10 million. You’re not at a point where that makes sense for you.

Ben: [00:37:37] Right. Well, and I mean this, I dunno this, this is, you can argue with me on this because I, I wonder if even then like  if you come to them and you say, you know what, my, my price tag is just too high. I don’t think it is going to be a good investment for you. even though like it would do really well for you, it’s still, you’re going to pay more than you end up getting as a return.

And if they just keep insisting and coming back and saying, how much is it? How much? I think if you’re, if you’re really following value based pricing to the letter, what what happens is you can’t, it’s impossible to arrive at what you would charge for something without doing a value discovery process.

And there is in the, in the material. in, in the value based pricing course, there is kind of this baseline that you develop, that comes from

the amount of time and the, like, the costs that go into producing something.

And that baseline becomes something that you, you never charge less than either, whether, you know, whether that’s per hour or per project.

depending on how you calculate it, but does that make sense? Like there is, there is a baseline, so, so I think at the very least, if you came back, you could only give them the baseline, but you can’t really like if, if they, if they insist on, I mean, and that’s one of the red flags. It really is. If they, before going through a value discovery process with you, if they insist on you quoting them something.

Dan: [00:39:31] Yeah, no, you, you turn, you say no to that. That’s a, that’s not a client that you’re going to work with. We’re talking, the title of the show is getting paid what you’re worth. Right. And we’ve been making the point that what your work is worth. Is determined by the client. But there is another side to this, which is you also have to, well, at the bottom level, you gotta pay your bills.

And at a slightly higher level, you have to pursue the type of work that will let you live the lifestyle you want to lead. So to just keep using my extreme example, it is, it’s not worth it for, like professional, big budget. Hollywood director. To work with someone who can only afford to pay them $3,000 like if they really wanted to, they could, they can make any decision they want.

But part of this, you know, part of getting paid what you’re worth is finding people who can pay you what you’re worth. So if, if your baseline, and this is part of this is all, you know, part of that value based pricing course, it includes pricing tools that you can use. In conjunction with the value discovery process to put hard numbers against this stuff, and part of the inputs to that, one of the inputs into that is the amount of money that you need to make to make a project financially viable, right?

So a part of getting paid what you’re worth is starting from a baseline of financial viability. The fact of the matter is, if you, if you can’t afford to work for. Too little money. Then how much the client values, how much the client values you is only a part of that equation, right? There’s how much the client values you and how much they can afford to pay.

Those two things are intertwined, but they are both aspects of it. I want to bring in something that Sam is asking in the chat because it, it’s another angle on this, especially because we were talking before about how. This idea of doing work that makes money for people who have money is only one part of the story.

Sam had asked this, how do I put a dollar value on the experience of giving a gift that someone can’t return a tailored artwork that’s completely customized to the receiver’s special interests? It’s a one of a kind object. A snapshot. Of their personality and he went on to ask, can value based pricing be applied to selling one off custom artworks?

I want to answer that second question first. The rules for determining if value based pricing can apply are, are these customized services? In other words, it’s gotta be custom. It can’t be a repeatable thing if you’re, if you’re selling like a product or productized consulting. You don’t do value based pricing because you can’t charge different people different amounts for the same thing.

So Sam is talking about custom, one-off customized artworks. So he’s got that part down. But the second part to knowing if value based pricing can apply is does the client realize a financial return? So this is where it breaks down. In Sam’s example, the client does not realize a financial return. From customized artwork, they might value custom artwork very highly, and I’m going to get there in a second, but you can’t apply our value based pricing process if the client isn’t going to realize a financial return because part of value based pricing hinges on charging a fraction of the value that the client will receive.

If they can’t put a number on the value, you can’t calculate your price.

Ben: [00:43:26] Exactly. And that’s, that’s one of the places where I get hung up the most is,

and that answers also a question that I was putting out there earlier. I’m trying to apply value based pricing to any type of transaction and you really can’t do that. You know, like you have to apply it based on the rules that you just put forth.

And outside of that, there are, there are ways to think about value and there are ways to determine value, but not using this specific formula.

Dan: [00:44:02] That’s right. And that brings me to the first part of Sam’s question cause he was saying, how do I put a dollar value on the experience of giving a gift that someone can’t return tailored artwork. Well, this is where we come back to that idea of the quadrant, right? In this case, the quadrant is a little different.

We talked about a quadrant where you have products that are nice to have, some products that make money and people who have money and people who don’t. Now, let’s form a quadrant for customized artwork, right? There are people who have a lot of money and there are people who don’t have a lot of money, and there are people who highly value customized art.

And there are people who don’t. So if you went to a college student who probably doesn’t have a lot of money and they don’t really have any interest in customized art, then your custom artwork is not worth a lot of money to them, so you’re not going to be selling them custom artwork. Now, if you find another college student who loves, who would just like love this piece of custom tailored art, they’d love it so much.

But they can only afford to spend $10 on it. Well, it’s great that they value the work, but they don’t have the money to pay for the value, so that probably isn’t going to be a good customer for you. Now, on the other side of the spectrum, you’ve got someone who has $10 million, but they’re not interested in art.

So even though they have $10 million, your art is only worth $10 to them. That’s not a good customer. Now. Finally, you’ve got a customer who has, again, $10 million to pick an arbitrarily large amount of money, and they really value custom tailored artwork. They’d want nothing more than this piece that they can hang in their living room.

That just speaks exactly to them and it represents their life to them. They would value that so much. They’d be willing to pay, who knows, thousands of dollars for it. That’s your customer. So the tricky thing, Sam, in, in a situation like this, you’re selling custom tailored artwork, is you really have to try to track down the people who value what you’re selling and can afford to pay for it.

So in, in terms of how do I put a dollar value on the experience of giving a gift, it’s tricky. I don’t have specific advice. For you. I, I can’t tell you that it should be $100 or $5,000 or $100,000 but I can tell you that the basis for figuring that out is going to start with identifying. Who your customers are.

So in my mind, if I’m thinking of custom created artwork, a ton of effort goes into that, and it’s this one of a kind thing. You’ve only got one chance to sell it and capitalize on it. Ideally, your customers are people who really value what you’re creating and have a lot of money. That’s where I would start.

Ben: [00:47:01] And there’s also, I think, some wisdom to going ahead and determining, you know, like when, when you sit down to create a piece of artwork, how many hours do you put into that

and how much do the materials costs you? How much do the canvases costs and the paints and the brushes and all of the things that you use?

How much does it cost to package and deliver. Or hold ex exhibitions where you can display these pieces of artwork, like how much, how much of an investment are you making, plus your time cost,

and what would you need to make

per piece of artwork sold at, you know, some frequency in order to.

in order to pay your bills.

And then I would even go a step beyond that. And like you were talking about earlier, Dan, talking about, to support the lifestyle that you want.

And I think just at the very least, you should start with that as a baseline in that doesn’t necessarily mean that. You know, like you’re saying, your piece of art is automatically based on those calculations.

You need to make at least $500 per painting  paintings, not automatically worth $500 to any person, but your painting is worth $500 to the right person. And probably more than that.

Dan: [00:48:35] Yeah. Ben, I’m, I’m so glad you brought that up because I, I had only been thinking about this. I guess in my head, I just been thinking about like a five foot by four foot canvas, you know, like hundreds of hours spent creating this piece of artwork. But the fact of the matter is you could create. Amazing custom artwork on like a tiny, like two by two inch square, and it may be takes you 45 minutes and you can afford to sell that for a lot less than the giant canvas.

So it’s like you said, five like $500 is if you decide that you have to sell a painting for $500 you’re going to have to find the customers who will pay $500 for it. But starting from the other direction. If you want to sell art to people who do not have tons of disposable income, you could sell smaller pieces of art, right?

Because it takes you less time to make. So like in going to the previous example, if you want to sell to the college students that are into art, maybe you can sell them these little miniature paintings. And what it reminds me of is last year when Sean went to Hawaii. I remember he highlighted this artist whose name unfortunately escapes me, but he was this guy.

He drew these little, like, they were like Hawaiian, like sunsets over the water. These tiny little paintings. They were maybe an inch square, but they were gorgeous. Do you remember that? Yeah. Sean and Sean, he bought one of those news posting about it and like, so you know this guy, I honestly, I don’t know how much Sean paid for that painting.

I’m, I can’t remember if he shared it, but I’m going to guess that it wasn’t $5,000 that this guy can afford to sell little paintings. For a lot less money. So, so I think as far as Sam’s question goes, we’ve kind of identified like we can’t give him a dollar figure that he should be charging, but we’ve identified the two levers that he can move.

One of the levers is how much time does he spend creating this thing? And the other lever is who is the customer that he’s trying to attract? If he’s going to spend a lot of time, he’s going to need a customer with a lot of money. But if he wants to sell the people who don’t have a lot of money, he can create art that has requires less of a time investment.

Ben: [00:51:03] Yeah. And so, so that’s making those calculations. Is the first step, and then, and then the question becomes, okay, how do I find those people? How do I position myself so that my artwork gets in front of those people? And it’s, I think it’s really similar to, to what we have talked about recently with like you don’t, you don’t try to build an audience around.

Your thing, you try to build something for an audience that’s already there. It’s a, it’s, it’s a very similar principle. You’re not trying to educate people on how much your thing is worth. You’re trying to put your thing in front of people who already understand  are willing to pay what it’s worth.

Do you want to get into,

kind of, kind of a.

Tangent to this subject is the w what you asked for as a salary from, from an employer. Do you feel like that’s relevant enough that we could bring that in as well?

Dan: [00:52:16] maybe briefly, I’d forgotten about that. So thanks for the reminder. you know, we talk a lot from the perspective of doing work for clients or selling products because a lot of. A lot of what we talk about is in the context of running your own business, right? And yeah, generally the alternative to that is having a job where you get paid a salary or a wage of some kind that’s predetermined.

But even though the salary is predetermined, it’s negotiated, right. So the same way that you are, putting a price to your services. In a way, when you get hired, it’s, it’s the same deal. You’re getting paid on an ongoing basis in return for your services. And a lot of people, I think, suffer from not getting paid what they’re worth, in part because they don’t realize that salaries are negotiable.

They have no idea what sort of amount is reasonable to get paid. And most of all, they, they don’t ask. They don’t. Ask. They don’t ask.

Ben: [00:53:23] Yeah. They don’t, they don’t counter. Mmm. It’s tough. There’s like one of,

one of the things I think a lot of people do when they are considering taking a job is they go and and do a search for, okay. How much. There’s someone in this position usually make, you know, and there’s, you might find a low end and you might find a high end and you might think, well, maybe.

And then you start thinking about like your skill level and you kind of just put yourself based on those numbers. You put yourself in some, you know, part of that spectrum and say, okay, I think this is, I think this is probably what I’m wearing. But to the company who’s actually doing the hiring. I think this is true for most companies, especially when the people running those companies understand the investment that people are, the investment that employees are and have, you know, longterm goals and plans.

And you know, they understand that. There are seasons where like you’re hiring and you’re not going to see a return on that investment for years and their seasons where you hire to meet demand so that you can, so that you can realize or return sooner. so like a lot of those are, those are just, and I’ve never been a CEO, I’ve never run a company, but I’ve talked with enough people who do run companies that I’m a little bit familiar with.

Some of those. Thoughts in those calculations if they, if they go and do a search for, how much does this position usually make? It’s typically more because they want to know whether or not it’s going to be a good investment. So if they think, if I hire a person for this position, my company can make an extra $100,000 a year, and that person.

For that position usually makes $120,000 a year. That’s not a good investment. Right? That’s the only way they’re thinking about that number. But you go and work for a company that that is, is hiring for a position and that position is going to make them an extra $500,000 a year. Then it doesn’t like and the ranges 50 to $70,000 salary.

It doesn’t matter. Like that doesn’t matter to them. So much.

Dan: [00:55:57] Yeah. There’s another way to look at it too, which is that when you are in terms of salary ranges, you’re competing with the other prospects for employment, right? So if a company is just looking to minimize their. Salary costs than someone who’s requesting less. Money’s more competitive, right? But there’s a competition going on on the other side too.

The employers are competing with each other for talent. So in general, you, you, you want to be, and this does, this comes from value based pricing as well. You don’t want to be seen as an expense. You want to be seen as an investment. That’s how you want to position yourself. So when you can.

Ben: [00:56:36] You want to be a as low of a risk investment as possible.

Dan: [00:56:41] Right? And that, I mean, that that really goes to how well you can demonstrate what you’re capable of, right? So it goes to your track record, it goes to your, your network and your references. Like, eh, this is why so many, so many of the best jobs come out of existing connections and they don’t come out of cold.

Applications. Right? Because if, if someone like high hiring is a big risk, it’s an expensive process just just to go through hiring for a company. I mean, they’ve got to take, by definition, they’re paying some of their staff to go through the hiring process. So if they spend all that time and money on a candidate who doesn’t pan out and now they have to start all over again, that’s very costly for them.

It’s very high risk. So ways of reducing that risk and include getting a referral. So here’s, here’s someone who works for me that I already trust and he’s telling me about Ben. Hmm, well, if this person thinks Ben is a good fit, now I feel a lot more confident that I’m going to be able to, to trust Ben and rely on him than if Ben was a total stranger who just sent me his resume.

Right? So it’s, it’s a, it’s a good point that like, you’re, you’re. The more, the more you want to get paid, the more work you have to do to mitigate that risk on the part of the employer, right? You’ve got to make, you’ve got to make yourself seem like a no brainer hiring use a no brainer. And the two components to that occur.

A couple of components that are the reputational side, which is what we just talked about, where the I, the ideal thing honestly is like a referral from someone who already works there, but other. The forms of reputation or having really strong references, having other people who work in the same industry that have vetted you before.

Having a public track record of some kind, which might be a us, a really strong portfolio of work that people can look at. And then the other side of it is demonstrating your value to the company. And so that that’s where it includes things like preemptively seeking out things that the company needs help with.

And offering a solution, you know, as a solution that’s in line, I’ll inline with the thing you want to be hired for. These are ways of attracting clients in client work as well. If you know you’re a web designer and do you notice a problem on their website and they’re losing traffic or there’s some kind of bug or something like that and you just, you know, knock together a solution and present it to them and say, Hey guys, I love what you do.

I noticed this problem on your website. Here’s a solution to it. Like that can be as effective talking to an employer as it is talking to a client.

Ben: [00:59:24] Absolutely. And there, there are some things that you, you know, there are some problems that you can’t. Solve unless you have insight information. But even even the attempt, it’s, it’s not a, it’s not a bad look. You know what I mean?

And then, and then the question becomes how, how do I determine what this position that I’m applying for?

Like how do I determine what this is worth? Because you can’t just go into the interview and be like. So how much money do you expect the business to make off of this position? You know, like you can’t, you can’t do that. But in the same way that the value based pricing and the value discovery process is kind of like detective work, you employ a lot of the same tactics.

And during the job interview, you know, like a lot of people feel like the job interview is kind of this one way thing where they’re the ones being vetted. But it’s also an opportunity for you not just to, to ask questions about the company and determine whether or not they have the kind of culture that you want to work in and, and all of those kinds of things.

But you can also ask questions about why did you decide to open this position up? That’s a fantastic question because that can unlock all kinds of different motivations and can uncover, so, so for example, when . When I was applying for the job at podia, I asked that question and one of the answers I got was, well, there’s, there’s another company that we’re kind of modeling this position.

After who started putting out YouTube content, grew their YouTube following, and now their YouTube channel actually produces, you know, 30% of their revenue. That is, that is a fantastic way to determine. The value of a position to a company, not so that you can exploit it, but so that you understand the way they’re thinking about it and asking those kinds of questions.

It’s, it’s kind of like an added benefit because it’s also a signal to them that if you take on that position, they like, if you’re the one hired, you’re, you’re going to be thinking about how can I make my time and my effort a good investment. Not just, not just like check the boxes and do the job, but how can I, how can I do the job in a way that’s a good investment for my company?

Dan: [01:01:59] Right? So you’re, you’re going to be looking at, you know it, it’s going to help you do a better job in the first place. And when you’re trying to get that job and get paid for it, it’s gonna help you make the case, right? It’s going to help you negotiate if you have a good understanding of what that job.

Is worth to them. And I want to bring up that word negotiate because so often we don’t treat these things like negotiations. You’re right, like a ban. A lot of us, we treat job interviews like they’re this one way thing. Like we, we, we, it can be very easy to go into them with an attitude of, please find me to be acceptable.

Ben: [01:02:34] Right?

Dan: [01:02:35] But that’s, that’s extremely disempowering. And, and it puts you in a position of feeling like maybe you’re lucky that they offer you anything at all. Whereas instead, you want to be coming in there with an understanding of the value that you provide and an understanding. Especially, you know what if, if you’re going through a hiring process and you’re getting to the point where it’s time to talk about money, well, for starters, similar to what we say in value based pricing about working with clients, if a client brings up the money right away, that is a red flag.

Like that is a warning that that is not going to be a client you want to work with. And similarly, it is entirely possible that if you encounter an employer who wants to talk about how much you’ll get paid before they really know anything about you or what you bring to the job, that may not be an employer that you want to work for, but with a good employer, by the time you get to the point where you’re talking about a salary, they have invested considerable time and effort.

Into this process and they’re interested in you joining the company. That means that you know, for example, you don’t have to be worried that if you ask for something that’s a little higher than what they would like, that they’re just going to slam the door in your face and say, be gone. And that being the case, because this is a negotiation, a couple of the general rules of negotiating apply, one of which is.

Well, one of which is to try to avoid being the first person to mention a number, right? Because it establishes a basis. And another one is another one is to ask for more than you think you want. So if you’ve decided that, you know, for this job that the general salary range you might expect is say between 50 and $70,000 a year.

And you’d like to make the it, you’d like to be on the upper end of that range. You’d like to be near 70,000 well, a great place to start if they’re, if they want to know what kind of salary you’re looking for is say 80,000

is above the top end of that range because it gives them room to negotiate down, but to keep you around where you want to be.

The problem is if you want to make 70 grand and you say, I want 70 grand, then they’re going to say, okay, well how about 65 or how about 60.  and there’s kind of nowhere to go but down. Right? Whereas if you start high, they can negotiate down, which is what they want to do. Hopefully you’ll still end up on a number that works really well for you, which is what you want.

Now you’ve both gotten what you want.

Ben: [01:05:12] I think there’s something to consider. This is probably a little bit harder to do in an employer situation, and we didn’t talk about this much with the client stuff, but the client will put forth a budget or the employer will say, well, we’ve budgeted this much for this position. That may or may not mean that they actually have cash money hanging out in the bank.

But really what they’re, what they’re saying is  well, what they’re not saying is we can’t spend more than this much on this. What they’re saying is based on the information we have, we’re willing to invest this much. Well, that can change because if the investment is worth it,

people will spend, like they’ll, if, if the investment is worth it and they have access to more money.

They’ll come up with the money

in, in a client situation. Part of what you do during the value discovery is you, you also maybe look for ways that they’ve either miscalculated the value of something and don’t realize that they’re leaving money on the table somehow, or there’s something, some other thing that you’re capable of doing for them.

with your product or service that they weren’t thinking about before. You know, like there, there may be other ways to increase that. And I think with an employer, if you ask the right kind of questions and you demonstrate your worth and, and you position yourself as a really good investment, like if we hire this person, they’re going to knock it out of the park and bring us so much value.

And if we don’t pay them what we ask, we’re gonna, we’re gonna miss out. It doesn’t matter how much we have budgeted, we need to meet whatever their request is, because we’ve got to get this person.

Dan: [01:07:11] Yeah. They’re, they’re very similar. The client work to, to getting employed. I mean, I mean, in terms of finding a really good fit, it’s similar in the sense that like finding a P, you know, people that bring up budgets. It’s a, it’s a red flag. I think it’s a red flag in both cases. I think are really, difficult to learn.

Take away from value based pricing. And it applies to employment as well, is that most jobs and most clients aren’t a good fit. And you’re going to have to say no to even good clients and good jobs if you want to find the really great clients and the great jobs. And one of the, one of the identifying.

Factors of a great client or a great job is that they understand so well the value that you can provide them, that paying you what you’re worth is a no brainer. It’s a bit of an afterthought, right? I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s where it’s the kind of job interview where. You’re both so excited to just get to work that at some point they go, Oh, we haven’t talked about salary yet.

What are you thinking? And you go, I want this. And they just go, Oh yeah, of course. You know, or you know, or you ask for a little more than that. Cause I guess, you know, another perspective on it is that if they, if they agree immediately to what you asked for it, you probably could ask for more, but okay.

Like, ask for a number that feels really good to you. And then if they’re like, well, we can’t quite meet that, but what about this? And if it’s a suitable negotiation, you can, you can say yes and get to work. Right? Like that is, that is a so much, so much different feeling than the feeling like you’re trying to nickel and dime each other into as little money as as possible.

Ben: [01:09:01] What’s, what’s the amount that someone could pay you that you would just wake up excited every morning to get to work because. Like that amount makes, makes it possible for you not to worry about or think about anything else

and it, and it maybe unlocks other possibilities, like things that you want to do in your personal life, like traveling or donating money or buying really nice things that you keep in your house, like whatever, whatever that is.

Like it’s worth considering those things in that calculation. Not like, okay, how much do I need just to get by? That doesn’t make anybody excited.

Dan: [01:09:37] No. And the, and it doesn’t, it doesn’t leave you with very much room to maneuver either. I feel like we’ve covered a lot. Ben, we ready to wrap this one up?

Ben: [01:09:47] Yeah, yeah, I think so, Dan, where can people go to find us online?

Dan: [01:09:52] Well, since we talked about value based pricing so much. You can go to value based cause it’s very easy to remember. What you’re going to find when you go to that URL is it’s actually going to take you to our membership page and the membership page is going to be customized to tell you all about value based pricing.

But this is the thing. This is the change that we made at Sean West in the last year or so, is that all of our courses including value based pricing are included in the membership. This is a pretty amazing deal because value based pricing, you can still buy it standalone. You get lifetime access to it, but it costs $2,500 and I mean that, you know that price alone is a no brainer.

People usually report that. They make back that money in their very first client engagement after going through the course. But well, what I’m even more excited to tell you about is this membership because you get access to all our courses, value based pricing. Our copywriting course, supercharger writing our course on launching a great digital product, presale profits, and a whole lot more.

This is about $8,000 worth of courses. You also get access to the Sean West community 24 seven access to this great community where people hang out, ask questions. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s going to be your people. This is the thing is that it’s, it’s a group of creative professionals and. It’s a ton of fun to hang out in there.

So not only do you get to par, participate, listen to these live shows like the one we are recording right now. You also get to ask questions and get customized help. So not only are you going through these courses and learning what you need to succeed in business, but you also get help every step of the way.

It’s a pretty amazing place. And the other thing about Shawn West membership is we are increasing the price. The price of annual membership is set to go up. Very soon,

Ben: [01:11:47] Yeah.

Dan: [01:11:48] and when it goes up, it never comes back down. So we’re raising the price to align it with the value that you get from membership. Check it out now you can lock in the best rate and get a bunch of months for free.

So you can go to value based you’re going to actually see all the details, not only about the value based pricing course, but also about Sean West membership and how you can save a ton of money. So check it out. Ben, where can people find you online?

Ben: [01:12:17] You can find me and I’m also at Ben Tolson on all of the things. And what about you Dan? Where can they find you?

Dan: [01:12:25] You can find me a DJ, and I at D J Jacobson, author on Instagram. Good show, sir.

Ben: [01:12:34] Good show, sir.

I dunno if you knew this, but it is spring break. Did I tell you this?

Dan: [01:13:23] You, you mentioned it, I think, I think I saw it on your Instagram that you’ve gotten entire rodeo going on in your house right now.

Ben: [01:13:29] Yeah. And an actual rodeo. We, 

Dan: [01:13:32] You’ve got horses and

Ben: [01:13:34] Horses. We, we, you know, had some dirt trucked in and converted our living room area and two. No, it’s, it’s a, it is, it is crazy though. All the kids are home from school all day for the entire week. I just have to say, I am, I, I’m a little bit surprised that there was not one single interruption and maybe slightly worried.

Dan: [01:14:03] Oh like me. Th there might be, you might, you might leave the room that you’re in right now and discover that the rest of the house has been transformed into something very different.

Ben: [01:14:13] Yeah. It’s like, Oh, the kids are being really quiet today. They’re being too quiet.

Dan: [01:14:19] Yes,

Ben: [01:14:20] See, that’s when it’s like, you know, you get, you get a little bit frustrated when they get kind of loud and noisy and disruptive and that kind of thing, but when they’re quiet, that’s.

Dan: [01:14:31] the fear really

Ben: [01:14:32] Bad news.

Dan: [01:14:33] Yeah. You, Ben, you have, I want to say you have two Honda Odysseys. Is that right? Or just one? You have two of them.

Ben: [01:14:41] no, I, I am. I’m the proud owner of two on the

Dan: [01:14:44] That’s what I thought. So I think what you’re going to find is, you know, you’ll go outside everything. We’ll see normal, and then you’ll find out that like the two Honda Odysseys have been attached to one another. And turned into some kind of mobile playroom.

Ben: [01:15:00] Yeah, that’s not, that’s not farfetched, actually.

Dan: [01:15:03] Okay.

Ben: [01:15:05] No, we, we, here, here’s what happens though, is they’ll leave stuff in the van all the time, so they’ll. Steal the keys, they’ll, you know, they’ll find the keys from the basket. They’ll go out to the van, open it up, find whatever they’re looking for, and then it’s almost as if once they’re done, they close the van and then they just checked the keys.

They’re like, okay, I’m done with these. I don’t need them anymore. I’ve found them in our grass. I’ve found them sitting on top of the van. I’ve found them inside the van. I’ve found them at the end of our driveway. It’s a problem.

Dan: [01:15:40] that sounds pretty

Ben: [01:15:41] So much that I, I had to address it earlier. I said, look, someone could find these keys and they could get into our house and steal things or hurt somebody, or even worse, they could take our van.

They’re really sentimental about the van we’ve named. We named our Honda Odysseys.

Dan: [01:16:03] Have you.

Ben: [01:16:04] Yeah. The older one is, is Lucy, and. The more recent one is Linus. So we got

Dan: [01:16:13] I like that. Peanuts characters. Yeah.

Ben: [01:16:16] going on,

Dan: [01:16:17] That’s pretty good.

Ben: [01:16:19] so hopefully, hopefully they got the message.

Dan: [01:16:22] I think what’s going to happen now is that you’re going to exit your studio and immediately step on a set of your car keys that have been carefully left on the floor right outside.

Ben: [01:16:34] Yes. Followed by a string of curse words.

Dan: [01:16:36] Yes, but we’re, we’re going to try not to record those.