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You want clients and you want them now.

But you don’t simply want more clients. You want more of the right clients. Because more bad clients is a nightmare.

  • Clients who don’t pay you.
  • Clients who push you around.
  • Clients who don’t communicate.
  • Clients who demand extra revisions.

You want GREAT clients:

  • Great clients pay well.
  • Great clients pay you on time.
  • Great clients don’t demand extra work.
  • Great clients let you follow your process.

That sounds incredible. How do we find these great clients?

Great clients can only be attracted. They cannot be chased.

In other words, you need to act like someone great clients want to work with, and draw them to you like a magnet.

We’re sharing multiple methods you can use to get great clients even if you don’t have a big audience.

Show Notes
Episode Transcript

Note: This transcript of the episode was machine-generated and has not been edited for correctness. It’s provided for your convenience when searching. Please excuse any errors.

Sean: [00:00:00] What is scarcity mindset that it’s scarce resources, you lack resources. You don’t have money, you don’t have clients, right? You, you lack. So you’re in scarcity mindset, which creates desperation. When you’re desperate, you’ll do things that you wouldn’t normally do that, you know, you shouldn’t do to try again, get clients and make money.

You end up compromising on your mind, morals, your beliefs, your professionalism, your prices. Good morning, Dan,

Dan: [00:00:45] Good morning, Sean.

Sean: [00:00:47] how are you?

Dan: [00:00:48] I’m great. How are you?

Sean: [00:00:50] I’m good. Your picture looks good. Your webcam looks good. We got that working. We got some

Dan: [00:00:56] I’m doing so well. We.

Sean: [00:00:59] you know,

Dan: [00:01:00] can never have everything working

Sean: [00:01:01] you joke. But, how well I’m doing is definitely tied to the technical stuff, the cameras and the streams, and, you know, people still listen to this podcast.

Damn, I don’t mean as opposed to not listening. Cause of course they do. Right. Of course. I mean, people still listen to this podcast as opposed to watching it. You can watch it now.

Dan: [00:01:24] In 2020, audio is still a thing. It still exists.

Sean: [00:01:28] Yeah, but I mean, it’s just, audio is the way you hear a video. It’s all about video, Dan. If you’re not filming your podcast, what are you, what are you even doing? It’s like

Dan: [00:01:40] hadn’t planned to go into the right. Does it even show up in your podcast player?

Sean: [00:01:47] No, no, not at all. All right, what are we doing here? We’re doing a series. We’ve got a series going build a profitable agency. This is part two. What is part two finding new clients. And just to remind you what this series is about, Sean West media is our client services agency. We have a flagship service, although we’re kind of exploring some other services we might add.

At some point you should see Dan’s face. I’m not going to show it. And it’s like what? but for now it’s the daily content machine and the daily content machine is where we turn your weekly show into daily content. So you’re recording long form video could be a podcast, could be a webinar, could be a course.

We’re turning that in two clips that go out on social media at the top have big platforms every single day, you’ve got new content going out. So. The biggest differentiator for us, between us and other services is we find the clippable moments. Right. It’s not like, here’s why you have to tell these video services in timestamp.

Here’s the out time stamp, trim it this way, use this title, all of this stuff. You’re like filling out forms all day. Just to get a clip, we just say, look, give us your full recording. We’re going to transcribe all of it. We’re going to look for certain criteria to say, this is a really good clip right here.

We’re going to remove these filler words, going to remove this silence, going to put it together. Nice. So it’s got a hook. Has some substance and then a good takeaway. Turn that into a clip. We’re going to write tons of titles, find the best title, render it for you. Design cover images for Instagram, TV, YouTube, all that stuff.

We handle all of that daily content Okay. That’s what we’ve been doing behind the scenes. Isn’t that right, Dan. So why are we doing this show?

Dan: [00:03:41] Well, I figure it’s one thing for us to build a profitable agency, but it’s another thing for us to teach everyone I had to back away from my mic to do that. Probably a bad idea. It’s bad enough to let me start

Sean: [00:03:54] Is this the show.

Dan: [00:03:55] want to teach, we want to teach people. No, we want to teach people how to build a profitable agency

Sean: [00:04:00] Alright,

Dan: [00:04:01] so they can, they can work with great clients and make more money.


Sean: [00:04:06] Alright, cool. So. We’ve talked about this topic before this topic of finding new clients and that’s episode three 60, you might check that out episode three 60 of the traumas podcast, how to, how to guide attracting clients. Also turn that into a PDF, which you can slash and get more clients.

We’ve got a PDF with six different methods you can use for getting clients. You might find that useful we’ll cover some of them today. But we’re going to cover it in a little bit of a different lens because we’re specifically talking about an agency and I really do want to approach this from the standpoint of you don’t necessarily have a big audience.

Right. So you can’t just be like everyone I am now available. And then you’re just inundated with requests. That’s probably not the situation you’re in. Maybe you are. That’s great. We can talk about some ways to leverage that. If you already have an audience. But I want this to be, usable for anyone. I’m going to give you really tangible things that you can do to get clients when you’re just starting from zero.

And some people were anticipating, I’m going to talk about content and contents. Good content is good, but it’s a longterm investment. It’s like. Planting a tree. It’s going to be a while before that tree takes root and it grows and it’s something you can lean against for a while. It’s just going to be a flimsy little plant.

It’s not going to give you much shade or fruit. So yeah, it’s, it’s good to invest in the longterm, but that shouldn’t be the only thing you’re doing and it shouldn’t necessarily be the first thing you’re doing. So it’s not going to be all about content. what else before we just dive in Dan?

Dan: [00:05:56] I don’t know. I mean, I think we do dive in because there’s so much to talk about, about the right way to get clients. I think people have heard a lot about, well, do I do content? Do I do ads? Do I just ask my friends and family to buy my thing? How do I, how do I do it? How do I get clients? I think we just go right into here’s how you get them like the right way quickly.

Sean: [00:06:17] In that case. The first thing I want to talk about is attracting clients versus chasing clients. You know, when you were a kid in school, you were young, there was probably that one kid running around chasing, chasing you, or like. Chasing the girls, you know, making them scream like, and nobody wants to be chased.

Like stop chasing me, stop, stop. You want it? You want to attract, right. We’re trying to be a magnet. We want, we want to have a pole, right? That’s the power of brand. When you have a great brand it’s, it’s magnetic, you have this magnetism, you’re pulling people towards you. You’re not having to push people.

And so you don’t have to be salesy and stuff. Right. You don’t have to chase after clients, clients don’t like being chased. Some of them, you can get by chasing, but not the great clients. And that’s what we’re about today. We want to get great clients. So I had written a little bit in the description of, of today’s episode that you, you obviously want clients, but you don’t just want more clients of all kinds.

You don’t just want any client. You want great clients. bad clients is just going to be. It’s bad clients lead to more bad clients, great clients lead to more great clients because they create grace great case studies. They spread the word about you. They refer you so you don’t start with bad clients and then work your way up to good clients.

That’s not the natural path, bad clients bring more bad clients. So that’s one of the biggest things that I can tell you is don’t just start off thinking I’m just a beginner. I’ve just started doing this. I’m not a seasoned professional. So I just need to take on whatever client I can get. I know they’re not going to be fun to work with.

It looks like there there’s all these red flags and they’re not going to pay me on time and they seem like they’re going to kind of micromanage this and it’s going to be a headache and there’s going to be all these changes and requests and, and, you know, right off the bat, this is not going to be good.

But you might be thinking, I guess I’ve just got to take this, right? Cause I’m just getting started. No, you don’t, you don’t have to go down that path. You can start with great clients and I’ll all you have to do to get great. Clients is be selective and say, I’m not going to take on these bad clients who are going to walk all over me and push me around and not pay my invoices.

You don’t have to go down that route. All you have to do is say no bad clients. Don’t pay you. They push you around. They don’t communicate. They demand extra revisions. That’s not what we want. We want great clients, great clients pay you. Well, they pay on time. Imagine that paying on time, you send an invoice, boom, you get payment.

Like what clients like that exists. They do. They don’t demand extra work. They’re just like, of course that’s what you did. That’s what we agreed upon. They let you follow your process because they understand in order to get the results, you have to follow the process. If you’re thinking about hiring someone and you’re wanting to hire them because you like the results they’ve created, then you need to let them follow their process.

The process creates the results. You don’t go into a world, famous pizza restaurant with a jar and demand that they make that world famous pizza with your sauce. They’re going to kick you out. It’s like, no, we have a process. You want the results you trust the process. That means when a client comes to you and tries to tell you how to do your work, you say no.

You say, in order to provide the high quality results you’re after this is the way I do things that process can involve all kinds of things like using your contract, working on your timeframe, not rushing the process, not letting the client push you around and tell you how to do things. Dan thoughts on that.

Have you experienced this? Have you seen this? Have you heard people talk about it?

Dan: [00:10:07] I think what I’ve seen is people struggle with the saying, no, I think the most obvious response that someone who’s just getting started or who. Who feels like they’re not where they should be to your aunt, to your analogy, which I love, you know, if you walk into the world, famous pizza restaurant with a jar and say, I want you to make your world famous pizza, but with my sauce, they’ll tell you to get out.

People are going to, a lot of people will hear that and go, well, that’s fine for them. They’re a world famous pizza restaurant. I can’t say I can’t just say no to clients. I’ll starve. So how do we break people out of that cycle of like ma it’s enough to tell them no, you have to be selective to get the great clients.

But how do you, how do you get people to a point where they actually feel like the, yes, I can be selective. I can afford to be selected.

Sean: [00:10:52] that’s a great, that’s a great question. essentially what we’re talking about is confidence. And we do have an episode on how to be more confident, which maybe you can find for me, Dan, I don’t remember the number, but I think it’s in the three hundreds. but I’ve, I’ve written about this before confidence comes from a man.

Now I gotta find it. I’ll have to find it in a second while you’re talking. So, so you can help me stall. do you want to do that?

Dan: [00:11:24] That’s that’s what I’m here for.

Sean: [00:11:25] Oh yes. Thank you, Dan. Thank you.

Dan: [00:11:28] well, so there’s confidence is one thing I’m sure Sean will, she’ll, we’ll find this quote, but there’s this notion that like confidence comes from having done the thing a lot, which again is a tough, tough thing when you’re just starting out. The other aspect that we we’ve talked about a lot in the community and, and in public is this notion of scarcity that when you’re operating from a position of scarcity, You know, you feel like you don’t have enough and there’s not enough to go around and there’s not enough available.

That makes it really hard to be selective because, you know, you’re sitting there going, like, if I say no to this client, what if I never find another client? As opposed to thinking there was an effectively infinite number of clients out there there’s more work than I could ever possibly accomplish. I can actually afford to say no to 10 clients in order to get the good one, but that’s a, that’s a difficult mindset to adopt.

Sean: [00:12:20] So, first of all, you also found how to be more confident was episode three 77. So if you are wondering that we have an episode on it, three 77, how to be more confident. So here’s what I had written confidence comes from experience. Experience comes from doing, doing comes from courage. Okay. So you’re thinking I want to be more confident.

I don’t feel confident. How can I say no because I’m not the world famous pizza restaurant. Well, To say, no, you need confidence. Well, I don’t feel confident. Well, you don’t feel confident because confidence comes from experience. How do I get experience? Experience comes from doing, you need to do things to get experience, to feel confident.

Okay. Well, I’m scared to do things right. Doing comes from courage and the definition of courage is not feel no fear. It’s it’s experience. Fear. And then act in spite of fear, that’s courage. Like there, there, there is no more, there’s no further source of courage that, that gets to something that is easy.

Like that’s what makes it courage. You’re sitting here going like, yeah, but how do I start when I’m scared? It’s start in spite of being scared. That’s the process. Step one is act in the face of fear. I am afraid to begin doing this thing because I don’t want to be a, a newb, you know, I don’t want, I don’t want to be the beginner again.

Like I like staying in my safe area where this thing that I’ve done for 10 years, I feel really confident in this, but I’m scared to do this new thing for the first time, because then I’m not experienced again. You know, now I’m out of my comfort zone. This is starting to get a little bit, bit scary. So you’re experiencing fear.

And you don’t want to start. Well, you have to start anyway. That’s a decision. It’s just like a light switch. Now on off, you just make a decision. You choose to act in spite of fear. That’s courage. When you have courage, you can do things. When you do you get experience. Once you have experience, you build confidence.

Dan: [00:14:34] I’m just I’m dwelling on that. And Sean switches the camera to me while I’m absorbing this deep wisdom. I love the idea that there are those two modes where. Once you have experience, you can, you can act with confidence, but before you get there, you’re going need courage. Like, and I think people that’s tough, right?

Because people are just like, what’s the secret? How do you, how do you act even though you’re scared? Well, you have to act even though you’re scared and, and maybe there are ways like maybe we can come up with ways to,

Sean: [00:15:06] Well, I think the best way is to surround yourself with people who act, who do in spite of fear. Who are trying things like you want to be in a place in a group of people where you feel like the odd one out. If you’re not trying things, if you’re not doing things, if you’re not acting in spite of fear, you need to get in an environment where that is normal.

Like how, how do people end up submitting K two or a lot of these, you know, crazy mountains where like, people, people die, like. In pretty significant percentages whenever they attempt it. Well, you, you don’t do it by just sitting at home on your couch. You do it by getting around a lot of other mountaineers who are just constantly pushing themselves.

So you feel a part of this and this, this, you know, this group is keeping you accountable, they’re pulling you forward. Right? So that’s probably the best hack is to just get around people where you would feel like the odd one out. If you weren’t doing the thing. So that’s the power of community, but we’re talking about attracting versus chasing clients.

You want to be a magnet. You don’t want to constantly chase. Cause when, when you chase it, reeks of desperation, like, Hey, I’m looking for work. Hey, do you have work? Hey, would you like to hire me? It, it doesn’t have that, that. Pull it doesn’t have that high quality brand feel. So how do we, how do we get that attention?

How do we find clients without putting ourselves in a position where we are working against the rule of reciprocity? What is the rule of reciprocity? It’s when someone does you a favor, they give you a gift. You feel an intrinsic desire as a fellow human to give back. In the same way. And in fact, it’s a little bit more powerful than that because you want to kind of give back in a slightly greater way, because you want to wipe away any trace of indebtedness.

You want to basically make it clear because there’s just kind of, kind of this implicit social contract. That’s like, if you do something for me, I’ll do something for you. That’s, that’s how a culture and community and everything works. So, this is just an intrinsic thing and you want to make it clear, like, Hey, we’re good, right?

We’re equal. So when someone buys you a coffee, you might be inclined to buy them a lunch, which is a little bit more expensive, and then they might buy you a dinner and you escalate, you know, the relationship goes up like that. When you reciprocate. Now, the thing is you don’t want to start off a relationship with an ask.

You want to start off the relationship with a gift. You want to start with giving because this creates the upward spiral that the magnetism, right, that escalates this relationship in a positive direction. So you start with a gift and then they feel that sense of indebtedness to you. They feel that pole to you.

So instead of starting with an ask, Hey, can you hire me? Hey, do you want some D you know, you know what I’m talking about?

Dan: [00:18:22] Yeah. The, the Twitter thing that you see all the time and, you know, sympathy if you’re in this position, but a lot of people will post a tweet. That’s like, Hey guys, just lost my job. I’m a. You know, front end web developer with 12 years of this, let me know if you hear anything and that’s fine. If that’s a reach out to your network, just to say, Hey guys, I’m looking for something.

If you know anyone, let me know, but we’re, we’re going to talk about a better way, right? That doesn’t start with, asking that doesn’t say, Hey, someone, please help me.

Sean: [00:18:54] Yeah. So asking, asking is working against the rule of reciprocity. It’s gonna, it’s gonna work against you. They will not want to hire you. And the thing is, even if they do, here’s the problem. If you start with an ask and they oblige, now you owe them. So this creates an imbalance in the relationship where even if you.

Even if you get them to become your client, they won’t even know why. And you won’t even know why, but they will feel like you owe them something. And so they’re going to ask for something that is above and beyond, whatever the contract or the agreement is, and you are going to feel obligated to do it.

And you won’t know why. You’ve probably experienced this. So maybe it’s clicking for you in the past. Like, man, why did that feel? Like it started off wrong? And then things just went off the rails, but I somehow felt this pole to accommodate and it’s like, none of this even makes sense. None of that was even professional, but here I was like kind of bending over backwards just to make sure they felt good.

It’s because you worked against the rule of reciprocity, you started it on the wrong foot with an ask. So proper alignment. With your perspective, client client makes the whole relationship makes the whole sales process effortless. And the key here, and this is not a simple thing, but this is the key. The key is don’t be in scarcity.

Don’t be in scarcity mindset. We have an episode way back to 56, how to defeat scarcity mindset. What is scarcity mindset that it’s scarce resources, you lack resources. You don’t have money. You don’t have clients, right? You, you lack. So you’re in scarcity mindset, which creates desperation. When you’re desperate, you’ll do things that you wouldn’t normally do that, you know, you shouldn’t do to try and get clients and make money.

You end up compromising on your morals, your beliefs, your professionalism, your prices. You have to be out of scarcity mindset. That episode talks about it. So I’m going to outsource the whole, like. Well, I definitely feel like I’m in scarcity mindset. Sean, how do I get out of that? Listen to episode two 56.

so I’m just kind of giving you a little hyperlink there, but the key is don’t be in scarcity because if you are in scarcity mindset, you will naturally violate the rule of reciprocity and you’ll create a problematic relationship with your new client. Okay. So moving on to another method of getting clients that works really well, especially when you’re starting from zero.

Pro bono. What is pro bono pro bono essentially means done for free? However, there’s, there’s a nice little nuance to pro bono that acknowledges the value of your work. This is a little bit different from just calling it free because free can kind of undervalue something like, Oh, it’s free. Does it have any value?

Here’s what I really like about pro bono. When you do pro bono. Legally, at least in the United States, you still need to charge sales tax on the total value of the service. So if you are providing a $1,000 service pro bono, you should have an invoice that has a line item that says service $1,000. Then have another line item, canceling that out because it’s pro bono.

So then it’s minus 1000, but then there needs to be tax. On that $1,000 service that you’re providing pro bono. And so the thing that’s kind of cool about this, you know, whether or not you actually go about doing it this way, maybe you just kind of ignore the whole tax part. But the point is I want to, I don’t recommend you ignore the whole tax part.

the point is the tax part kind of forces this acknowledgement or recognition of the value of the services, even though they’re provided. Pro bono, even though they’re provided for free. So I really like that. because we’re not just giving away something valueless. We are giving away something free.

Now I’m not saying when you, when you go about doing this, this method, I call note providing no strings attached value. I’m not saying when you do this, you need to write up an invoice. I’m just kind of giving you a little bit of history and context on the word pro bono and how it acknowledges. The inherent value of the service when you provide no strings attached value for free, you are working with the rule of reciprocity, creating a poll, creating magnetism that draws clients towards you.

So if you want a client, you go to them and you do something for them for free, you don’t charge them. And the reason I say no strings attached is because what you also do not do. Is then say, by the way I do this, and if you’d like to work with me, like touch, and these are my prices and all of that, you don’t do that part where we’re just dropping a little gift, a little value bomb, that’s it?

No strings attached. And, and that is the key because when you attach the strings, like if you’d like me to do this, you know, please hire me all of that. Now you’ve made it transactional. So now you’re just a salesman, trying a tactic. As opposed to someone providing value, building a relationship. I’m going to pause there because I’ve said a lot, Dan.

Dan: [00:24:21] You have said a lot that I think the last part is kind of the fundamental, it is kind of the key is differentiating between building a relationship and just trying one more tactic to get work. And I’m not sure. Well, I’m not sure where to go from there, but like the building, the relationship is ultimately more important because you might convince someone to pay you some money to do some work.

But it comes back to this thing that you’ve either already touched on this already, or we will touch on it. Then the difference between pushing and pulling, you know, and when you have proper alignment with the right clients, how everything feels effortless, it’s just not difficult to get them to pay you.

It’s not difficult to get them to understand the value of your work. And similarly, if you’re just trying to get someone, Hey, I made you this thing. Now hire me at your you’re pushing. You know, you’re just, you’re trying to. Trying to force the person into a position where they’ll, they’ll hire you. And that just doesn’t work really nicely for either of you.

It’s, it’s so much better when you just here’s the thing. And I don’t expect anything in return. You’re welcome. And you, you, the trick is you have to be completely willing for nothing for that to not pay off.

Sean: [00:25:32] And, and, and it’s, it’s actually going to not pay off in some cases like maybe three out of four clients for whom you provide a no strings attached value, don’t actually hire you. However, if the one does and the one ends up. Paying you for a year long project and they ended up recommending you and they end up working with you on another project three years from now, that makes up for it.

It makes up for the little bit of effort you did with these other clients. You can roll that into considering it as a client acquisition cost for the one client that you got not to mention the positive brand perception, the other three, who didn’t hire you now have, how does that affect the way they talk about your brand?

You may never even be able to attribute this, but in the future, some clients you get may have actually come from referrals made by the other three people for whom you provided no strings attached value. So that’s, that’s pretty cool. It’s not like, it’s not like you’re losing out here now. Why is this really powerful?

It’s powerful because nothing is stopping you right now for going and doing valuable work for prospective clients. Nothing is stopping you. And that actually may be what causes you to feel uncomfortable about this notion of pro bono and no strings attached value is that nothing is stopping you from doing it.

You know, it’s a lot more comfortable sitting there and going, I made a landing page and I don’t have any clients, or I only have 86 followers on social media. I can’t do this stuff cause I don’t have a big audience. That’s comfortable because it’s going. Not my fault. Nothing I can do, but there are things you can do and I’m pointing out things.

You can do ways in which you can be proactive that will get you clients without an audience without having to produce content, which we’re going to talk about in a moment because content marketing is great, but it’s, it’s not the only way to do this. So I’m trying to give you ways that you can be proactive, go out there and make things happen to get your own clients without chasing them without coming across as desperate. Okay, so let’s talk a little bit, there was one, one more thought here. Pro bono. Oh, that’s what it was. I said provide value to these clients. Now, what is value? Value is subjective. This is the most important thing about pro bono and no strings attached value. You cannot just provide something you want to provide.

You have to provide something that is valuable to them. That is subjective. You’ve heard the expression one man’s trash is another man’s treasure. The thing that you might provide to this prospective client, this client you want to get, you might think that that’s valuable because you did this thing for another client and they found it valuable.

But this second client may not find it valuable. They may be interested in something else. You have to do your research. What would this prospective client find valuable? Well, how can you know that you can look at their social media, you can look at their blog posts on their website. You can watch their webinars, you can sign up for their newsletter, you do your research and your homework.

You find out what are they about? Not just in general, but in this season, what is their focus right now? Pop quiz. What is my focus right now? You want to work with me? For instance, you want to provide no strings attached value to me, you would do your homework. What am I about right now? What is my focus right now?

Anyone in the chat feel free to put your answer in the chat. Have you been paying attention? What is my focus right now? You can do your research. How could you possibly know? Well, you could follow my Instagram. You could look at my tweets. You could listen to this podcast. Alexander says agency. Exactly.

Sean with media daily content machine. That’s all I’m about right now. That’s it. So if you come to me and people have done this, like they still send me stuff about lettering or about design or about, what was the other thing? It’s just random things, old things, things I’ve talked about a long time ago that maybe I was about back then, but I’m not about it right now.

So they come to me and they’re like, here, you should want this. It’s like, No. Thanks. You know, it’s like, I don’t really want that. Then you just have the like yellow pages dropped on the front door. It’s like, thanks for this gift. Like I have the internet, you know, like, Oh, it’s super valuable. We worked really hard and there’s 500 pages and they’re yellow and it’s like, I don’t care.

Did you look into what I want at all? So you have to do your research to find out what is valuable to this particular client. You want to work with.

Dan: [00:30:27] Do they still print the yellow pages? Is that even

Sean: [00:30:30] someone is

Dan: [00:30:32] I don’t know, who’s, who’s getting value out of it.

Sean: [00:30:34] makes a good booster seat, I guess, but I don’t even have kids, so they really didn’t do their homework. You know?

Dan: [00:30:41] That’s true. Take one. They would have sent to you and sent it to Ben.

Sean: [00:30:45] There you go. All right. So, so that’s, that’s an important thing to note with the whole pro bono thing. Okay. So content marketing, this is what everyone thought I was gonna start with, like make content, right. Position yourself as an expert. Sure. It’s a longterm strategy. It’s going to take a couple of years to really get traction with that content.

You can’t just post two pieces of content. And then like suddenly you’re inundated with requests. It doesn’t work that way. Does that mean you shouldn’t be creating content? No, it does not mean that because it is a very good idea to create content start. Now they say the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago.

It’s the same thing with content marketing. You didn’t start your podcast in 2012. That’s okay. Start a podcast now, you know, start, start a video show. Now start a blog. Now it started you start a newsletter. Now start your Instagram. Now, now don’t overwhelm yourself. Don’t start all of those at once, but start with something.

And just begin, just, just put a little, contribute a little token, right? Just, just put the token in, just start to invest in that 20 minutes a day, 30 minutes a day, when you really get going. And you’ve got things like humming along, maybe if automated a few things, start up to diversify, add an additional stream, add an additional platform, different type of content begin repurposing.

but. For today’s show. I want to encourage you to think of that as a longterm investment. I want to get you clients now. I want to get you clients sooner. So, to that end, I recommend a, an episode it’s two 88 of the Sean West podcast episode two 88, make money faster by not doing content marketing right now and what to do instead.

And that’s, that’s basically this it’s like if you’ve been feeling like. You know, I don’t know about content marketing or like you’ve been trying it and you’re not getting clients. This will give you some additional things kind of along the lines of what we’ve been talking about. But, I will say this is obviously pre COVID.

It was hundreds of episodes ago. So some of it’s going to talk about like in person meetings and like going to meetups and stuff. But I think you can still translate that to like digital things or groups online, you know, stuff like that, but there’s some good, good stuff in there. any thoughts, more on content marketing before we move to the next one, Dan.

Dan: [00:33:12] I really like what you said about starting now. I mean, this, this resonates with me as, I I’ve always sort of have this vague notion of I’d like to be making some kind of content. I’m not sure what, maybe someday I’ll put together a plan and start doing a daily, you know, Like perfect. Is the enemy of good, perfect is the enemy of anything where it’s like, I’ll build myself a daily content machine and then, you know, but like 20 minutes a day, like I could be doing one post, one tweet, just one, anything that’s valuable.

It’s better than nothing. It doesn’t mean I’m going to have an audience of hundreds by the end of the year, but it’s something right. Like, I I’ve always felt that way about blogging, where I look at people who have a website and their archives go back to like 2007 and they’ve never stopped. And I think, I wish like it’s, it’s that like legacy, you know?

And I always feel like for those of us who haven’t been doing this, you have like, like this missing legacy, like, Oh, where’s, where’s all the stuff I should have been doing for the last 10 years.

Sean: [00:34:12] How does that

Dan: [00:34:13] start now, you know,

Sean: [00:34:16] Not having, not having podcasted every week for the past. Five years, like not having posted something on Instagram every day, not having written a newsletter once a week. Like how does that feel?

Dan: [00:34:31] It feels like for me, it feels like I’m not I’m I’m

Sean: [00:34:39] Anyone in the

Dan: [00:34:39] missing out on, on.

Sean: [00:34:41] answer as well.

Dan: [00:34:43] But it feels like I’m missing out on sharing something with the world. Like I, like, I, I tend to vacillate between like, I’m fine here by myself in my house, you know, I don’t need to, like, I don’t need to share stuff and I want to have content and I want to have an audience and, you know, readers and people who are interested in, I want to build businesses and the whole thing.

So I, you know, in the latter way not having done, it just feels like. Like, Oh, I’m behind, you know, it just, and how can I ever catch up? But like the only way you can catch up is by doing it.

Sean: [00:35:15] Marshall says plug for 30 days to better writing. What do you, how do you interpret that?

Dan: [00:35:22] I think, So 30 days to better writing is all about creating a habit. Right? I think what Marshall is saying is, and what we’re saying really is the other reason to start posting right now, even though you’re not going to suddenly have a hundred thousand Instagram followers, is it gets you in the habit of making content.

And when you actually want to, when it’s actually time to ramp up content marketing, you know, your best bet is to have a, have a habit of creating content.

Sean: [00:35:52] that’s a good point. And I also took it as 30 days to better Of course, that I have that will teach you to build a writing habit in 30 days, 30 lessons, 30 minutes a day is course Corey says classic Sean, whenever I’m like, when I do those little plugs, the thing to me is like, it gives you something that you can.

Work with it. It simplifies it instead of like, ah, I should probably do this. I should probably do this more. I should probably do this more often, but it’s so vague. It’s like, what is, is more, what is more often and when and how and why. And so you just kind of left with this like nebulous cloud that you’re like, eh, that’s me pushing, watching on the video.

Just get, get away from me cloud and it just remains. Intangible and undefined, well, 30 days to better writing defines that for you. Hey, for the next 30 days, we’re going to do 30 lessons and you read the lesson for five minutes and then you write for 20 minutes and then you take a quiz. What do you write about, we’re going to give you prompts.

There you go. The next thing you know, like people have written their books as a result of this course, and they’ve surprised themselves at how much they can right now, Dan, I have to admit to you. I am very similar in that. I am just all or nothing. I I’ll I’ll write like my right 100 event where I attempted to write a hundred thousand words in a day and made it to 50,000.

I’ll write 50,000 words in a day and then I’ll spend weeks not writing. No, that’s no good. It’s, it’s more about consistency, but we don’t value consistency because it’s, it’s not. It’s not cool. It does it doesn’t it’s not flashy. Right? And so we just, we devalue it. What’s why would I write 247 words?

That’s nothing. That’s like a long text message. So I might as well not. And it’s like, well, meanwhile, someone else wrote 247 words a day and they had 100,000 by the end of the year. 100,000 is a very large book. It’s it’s more than a book. It’s certainly enough substance to edit down into a book, 247 words a day.

I I’ve probably spoken that in this little monologue. It’s like a long text message. It’s nothing, but you’re not doing it. And neither am I like, that’s the point. Like, I, I don’t do this either. I just, I wait and I hold back and I do these big flashy bursts. Because that’s cool. That’s fun, right? What’s not fun is right.

Every day I’m gonna wake up. I’m gonna wake up early. Cause I went to bed early, cause I said, no, I’m going to put my phone in, do not disturb mode and put it in a separate room and actually go to bed and turn the lights off, Sean. He thought it was going to say Dan, Sean, anyway,

Dan: [00:38:50] didn’t think you were going to cause it applies to me that applies to me just as well. It’s just like, Ugh. Right. Every day I have to go to bed early.

Sean: [00:38:57] I’ve been, I’ve been working really hard to get up early again, get back on that routine. It’s going, it’s going well. I think three 75, three month guide waking up at 6:00 AM consistently. I’ve been following my own guide to get back on track. It’s going well.

Dan: [00:39:11] AM club at times.

Sean: [00:39:14] but anyway, right, every day I’m gonna wake up early.

I’m going to write for 20 minutes. You can get a thousand words in 20 minutes, easy. Even if it’s 867 words, that’s still really good. The point is consistency over time. All right, we’re going to move on to networking, networking, to find new clients. Here’s the wrong way. The wrong way is to reach out to people like all these LinkedIn messages I get every day.

It’s like, do they not know how transparently obvious. The message, the fact that the message is automated and not personal and just blast it out to everyone. Like it’s so transparently spam. I don’t know how, I guess 0.0, 1% of people must be responding and it makes it worth it. And that’s why they keep doing it.

But I just keep getting these cold emails, these cold LinkedIn messages, and it’s like, I’m, I’m not going to respond. And it’s like, Hey, this. You know, this is just like a pop up ad. It’s the equivalent of a popup ad, or just like, get it, get out of the way, you know? that’s the wrong way to network is you reaching out to people say, Hey, I need work.

Or do you need X? Like, it just, it reeks of desperation. And it’s, again, starts the conversation with an ask, which is not the right move. So you don’t want to like reach out and be like, gimme. Reach out and be like, pay me money. Hey, let’s, you know, can I, can I sell you on these services? Here’s the right way you reached out to people that ideally you already know, this is a good place to start.

Just start with the people that, you know, you can branch out eventually to the people that you’re like LinkedIn connections with. Right? Like, and I’m not just talking about LinkedIn here, but I’m just using that as an example. Reach out to your existing network. The people that, you know, they, they used to call it a Rolodex now it’s I messaged or whatever, what Dan they did.

Dan: [00:41:20] How old are you

Sean: [00:41:21] I don’t know. I don’t know.

Dan: [00:41:24] It’s like, even my dad didn’t have a Rolodex. You probably did actually.

Sean: [00:41:31] Just reach out to the people in your current network and don’t get distracted by the word network, reach out to the people, you know, your friends, your acquaintances, your business colleagues, people you met at conferences, reach out, you have their contact information. You’ve emailed them. Once they signed up to your newsletter, you signed up to yours.

You still have a business card somewhere stacked around, reach out to them. What do you say? Hey, can you give me work? No. You say, I’d love to catch up with you or actually even better do a little bit of research, Dan, like just go find their Twitter handle and see what they’ve been tweeting about lately.

Right? So find out what they’re interested in. Same thing as the no strings attached value with prospective clients and then reach out and say, Oh, I’d love to hear more about this. Like I saw you’ve been working on this sounds like you’re really excited. I’d love to hear more about it. just want to catch up.

You’ll probably get like four out of 10 people to say yes, especially if you have that preexisting, connection there. So see if you can help with anything that they’re working on, don’t be fake. You have to have a genuine interest in helping here. Give first listen, ask how you can be of help and be sincere.

And the rule of reciprocity is going to work in your favor. So you go into this. Listening to them asking, seeing how you can help soon. It could be 30, 40 minutes into the conversation. They’ll turn it around and ask how you’re doing. And what are you working on? What are you excited? What are you excited about?

Wait for them to do this. Wait for them to ask what you’re working on or what you’re excited about. Don’t just start doing it. Wait, be all about them until they ask you. And if they don’t, if they never do, if they just soak it all up like a sponge, because they’re starved for attention and nobody ever asks any questions or expresses any interest in them, which is probably the case for a lot of people.

So be it don’t force your agenda on this conversation. Allow that conversation to be entirely about them, because what will likely happen is there will be a second follow up conversation in the future where they reciprocate. And that’s all about you. The point is wait until they ask what you’re about.

When they ask, tell them what you’re working on. Be excited. When you talk, focus on your message, focus your message. Rather, what is your message? What are you excited about? And it can’t be everything. Just, just pick one thing. So you’re, you’re excited. You’re focusing, you’re describing what you’re focused on in a way that makes it abundantly clear what service you offer.

Dan asked me what I’m excited about.

Dan: [00:44:12] I’m gonna, I’m actually gonna take it and turn it on you, Sean. I was just looking at your Twitter and I saw that you tweeted, I can’t give a design crash course in a single tweet, but a few tips use a consistent color palette. And there’s a few more tips because the point isn’t to read your tweets, but let’s say I went to your.

You wanted me to, Oh, you wanted me to do it. People are just going to have to go follow you on Twitter at Shawn West and they

Sean: [00:44:32] Good plug, good plug.

Dan: [00:44:33] Yeah. You’re welcome. so I went to your Twitter and I saw that tweet. Now I message you and say like, Sean loved your design crash course in a single tweet.

That was incredible. And I got, and I already learned a and B from it. W you know, and then I can ask you, what, what kind of things are you doing? Like, what are you thinking about design right now? What are you working on right now and lead in that direction?

Sean: [00:44:55] Yeah. So, Dan, what I’m excited about is taking my design background. And infusing that into a service where we provide high quality clips for people. So we take their weekly show. We turn it into daily daily clips for the top five platforms. We call it daily content machine. And it’s the highest quality video clip production server in existence.

Why? Because anyone else can just make clear and chop up a video for you. We call it the chop and crop. They don’t even care. They don’t ask questions. What do you, what kind of texts do you want me to put on it? Here you go. Slap it together, send it over. We, we handle all of that for you. We find the best clips.

The best moment. You know, you did this long form recording. I said something good in there somewhere. You don’t know the title. I’m stamp. Just send us the whole thing. We’ll transcribe it. We’ll give you that transcript too. Just whatever you want to do with that. Turn it into books, courses, email guides, PDFs, anything on your next speech.

We give that to you. We find the best moments, clip it out. Remove the filler words. We hand that back to you. I’m using my design background, my 15 years of design experience to train my team on dotting. All the I’s crossing, the T’s making sure everything is. Perfect professionally animated. This is just the most polished clip you’re ever going to get.

Daily content, If you know anyone wanting to create clips for social media, they make a long form show. They record a weekly podcast. They film themselves and they’re like, I really should do this social media thing. I know I should make more content would be great. If I could post once a week, let alone daily, let us handle it.

Build your brand, grow your audience. Get more clients spend more time with your family daily content, That’s what I’m passionate about. Dan, how about you? But see, even there in my little kind of jokey monologue, I felt the reciprocation pole and I ended it with like even kind of tongue in cheek.

I’m still like, how about you, Dan? What are you excited about? Cause I just felt like, Oh,

Dan: [00:46:53] of you is thinking, I, I just done, he gave me the opportunity to do everyone’s favorite thing in the world. Talk about themselves. But now that I’ve done that, Oh, you know, Dan was so nice to give me that opportunity. What are you working on? Yeah. Well, the other thing that I note about that is that you complimented me on plugging your Twitter and then thought I’ve got out do that plug though.

So, so he did good, good job. But, one, one thing I want to point out Tony said in the chat, I used networking like that to get a new job last year. So first congratulations, Tony also. Tell us in the chat. How, how you did that, tell us the story. Like, cause I think everyone would love to see an example of this, right?

It’s easy to tell people, Oh, you should do this, but it’s so much easier. It’s so much easier for them to replicate. If they can see examples of how people actually did it.

Sean: [00:47:45] All right. So make sure when you’re focused on your message, they’re asking you what you’re excited about. You are describing in a very clear way. What your services, what is the service that you offer and notice? I did not say, services. Like I want you to focus on a service. Pick one thing not I do this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this one thing.

Daily content machine weekly show into daily content. The end. I’m not also saying, and we can design Instagram carousels for you and we can design your logo and, we can manage your social media and. We’ll write new blog posts for you and we can do your email marketing and of course your ads, you need you, do you have an ad consultant?

We can, we can do ads, plumbing. If you have any leaky toilets, does your lawn need to be mowed? One thing, one thing. Now, this is important when you’re, when you’re, I’m just going to say networking, but really you’re just having conversations, right? We’re just calling it networking when you’re having these conversations with people.

Remember this. The goal is not to get this one person to become your client. The goal is to get so specific and so clear about your message that you arm them with the ability to become your brand ambassador. When you get really clear about that’s all I’m doing here, Dan, like all I’m doing is arming.

Everyone who pays attention to me, listens to me, follows me with the knowledge that if you have a weekly show, you film yourself once a week. And you want to post more on social media. The daily content machine will help you create daily content. That’s it. I’m not expecting everyone listening to this to become my client.

I’m expecting them to know exactly what we’re about. So anyone else they come across who’s like need to post more on social media, but I still have time. I don’t want to do the video editing. And it’s just so exhausting. You’re like, Well, you already filmed yourself doing a weekly podcast, right? Yeah. Well, you should check out Sean with media, they got this daily content machine thing.

That’s all you’re doing here. When you’re talking to people, you’re just getting so clear. Like here, here’s an example. You’re like, they’re like, Hey, what are you excited about? And you’re like, Oh, thanks for asking. What I’m really excited about right now is helping nonfiction authors type set their book.

So the words on the page look intentional and the reader trust the message. Wow. That’s really specific chances. Are I, the person you’re talking to don’t necessarily need that right now, but maybe in the future I do. When I get to the point where I’m writing my nonfiction book and I need someone to type, set the book, you’re my person.

But even more likely than that when I come across anyone else that I know who’s writing a nonfiction book and they’re looking to get it typeset. You’re the person. So you become really clear when you get clear, you arm, the people you share your service with to become your brand ambassadors. When you try to be everything for everyone, they cannot do that.

Dan: [00:51:11] There’s something kind of subtle there that I want to make sure we get out, which is this idea when you’re networking with people, the point isn’t to get the person you’re talking to, to hire you. The point is to put yourself in people’s minds. Well, and the point is to build a network. Value of a network is how many connections are in it.

It’s not the fact that you’re connected to five people. It’s the fact that the five people you’re connected to her, each connected to five people. And each of those people are connected to five people. So if you get the right message into about you, in this case, into the heads of the five people, you’re connected to that message has a chance to spread to 125 people or 125.

Thousand people. And that notion of creating brand ambassadors is a much longer game, but potentially so much more beneficial than just going to one person and say, hire me, please. So this comes back to what we were saying before about the dangerous scarcity mindset and the need to escape from it, because the only way you can play the game of, I’m not even going to ask this person to fell, please hire me.

I’m just going to. Give them a really clear picture of what I do so that they can tell the people they know. So that a friend of theirs is talking to a friend of theirs. Who’s writing a nonfiction book and is having a terrible time trying to lay it out themselves. They paid someone on Upwork, like $10 and got back this terrible PDF.

So now they’re trying to learn how to do it themselves. And should they use cat caliber vellum or how do they even do it? And their friend goes, Oh, you know what? I was talking to this guy at a conference. And he told me about this guy who. All he does is type typeset, nonfiction books.

Sean: [00:52:51] But that, but that doesn’t happen unless you don’t try to transact. In that conversation, which, which you will feel the pressure to do if you’re in scarcity mindset. Cause it’s like, I’m 30 minutes into this conversation and there’s no money in my bank. Like I need to get them to give me some money

Dan: [00:53:11] gotten paid yet.

Sean: [00:53:11] yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So one way you can incentivize those referrals and you don’t even have to do this, right? If you go into the relationship saying, Hey, what are you excited about? And you listen and you genuinely try to help in any way. Then they will very likely reciprocate by spreading the word about your message and your services provided that it’s very specific, right?

If it’s too complicated and everything they want, remember, even if they want to help you out. Right. But you can further incentivize referrals with a commission. So for instance, you could say, depending on the service, right? Depending on how it works, you could either do a onetime payment or even an ongoing thing.

If it’s, if it’s monthly. So anyone who refers someone to you, you can say, Hey, we’ll send you this commission bonus. That’s an option. That’s a tool that is at your disposal. Okay. So eventually if you get specific enough, you will become the go to person. For anyone, your network knows, not just anyone, you know, but anyone they know, which is super powerful.

I’m going to touch on another thing real briefly, which is filtering with your questionnaire. You’re like, what questionnaire? Well, that’s the problem. You need a questionnaire. And we have an entire episode on this episode, three 60, one of the podcast, the right questions to ask in your client questionnaire.

Your questionnaire is the filter like the filter in a pool or the filter in your refrigerator where the water is dispensed. You want to keep the debris out. You want to keep the unwanted, substances out, right? Like we do not want bad clients. We need to filter out the bad clients. How do we filter out the bad clients by asking the right questions that cause them to identify themselves?

Or possibly with conditional logic on your form. If you want to get really fancy, if you want to see an example of this, if you go to daily content, you’ll see a form there that asks people, Hey, do you. Film, you know, one of these things on video, do you produce at least 60 minutes of footage each week?

Do you understand this investment? Right. And so we’re asking questions, but we’re also technologically using radio buttons and conditional logic to literally filter people out to where they can’t even submit the form. They can’t complete it. If one of the questions, filters them out, right? Like, no, I actually don’t film anything.

It’s all audio. It’s like, well, that doesn’t fit with our service. We work with video. And so what you can do is you can have conditional yes-no things. So if they say no, it’s like, well, here’s how this works and here’s why we need it. And they might go, Oh, okay. Yeah. Well then I guess I can provide that. So you’re filtering with your questionnaire.

It doesn’t have to be technologically like that. It could also just be questions. So you have questions like, what does your organization do? Why does it matter? And if the person fills it out and they’re like, I mean, I just want to make money. It’s like, Hmm. Maybe they haven’t really thought this through.

Maybe they’re not a serious client. Right. And so you, you can filter them out at that point. So if you want more of that, I’ll give you my exact questions that I ask. When I work with clients, episode three 60, one of the Sean West podcast. The other thing I’ll say about your questionnaire, first of all, you need to have one do not.

Please do not just have name message. Submit. That’s not good that doesn’t look professional either, but it’s also just going to waste your time, ask relevant questions. What information do you need to know upfront? What do you need to have in order to be able to determine whether or not you’re going to be able to work with this client, ask those questions and ask no more than those questions, because you don’t want to just ask so many questions that people are just overwhelmed and they don’t get in touch.

but that episode talks about the right questions to ask. And the final thing I’ll say on that is. Everyone goes through the questionnaire. So what are the exceptions to that who is allowed to bypass the questionnaire? We’ll some, Nope, Nope, no exceptions. Everyone goes to the questionnaire. Well, what if they email me directly?

They didn’t go to my website. They didn’t fill out the form. In fact, I don’t even have a website, Sean. Do I do I yet, do I need to have a website? You’re saying before I provide the service, I should go spend three months building a fancy website and a, in a fancy questionnaire form. No, I’m not saying that you don’t need a website to get work.

All you have to do is have a portfolio that can be in a PDF that could be in the form of someone else’s you build websites, right. Or whatever, like that can be in the form of someone else’s website at their domain. You say, look, I built this. That’s an example of your work. We, we have clients now paying us and we don’t have a fancy media website with examples of our work.

And we’ve, we get clients coming to us who have not even asked to see examples of our work. It’s crazy. So don’t get distracted. I’m not saying crazy. Like they, they obviously trust me. They’ve been following me long enough to know that we do quality work without having yet created a media agency website.

But just don’t get distracted by thinking, Oh, I need to build this. Does that mean you shouldn’t have a questionnaire? No, you should still have a questionnaire. So even if you don’t have a website, someone comes to you directly, you should still have your list of questions. So whether that’s in a form or not, you say, Hey, so great to hear from you.

I’d love to see if this would be a good fit for both of us. And to that end, I have some questions. So would you just get back to me with answers to the following questions? No matter what they go through the questionnaire. So even if they email you directly, they didn’t go through the website, whatever.

However you want to do the questionnaire, sending it manually attaching it, pointing them to the form on the website. Everyone goes through the filter. It’s just like the water dispenser in your fridge. You don’t want to just take strange water from the Creek and pour it into your glass. Everything goes through the filter.

Okay. There’s a few of the things we have here, Dan is just kind of, kind of more than I was thinking. It’s a little bit random. Like we’ve got, once you have a prospect, you know, pushing polling, talking about that, we’ve got the thought that went into creating our video on the landing page. That helps us get new clients.

we have the idea of making an email course once again, trying to attract clients to you, what to do instead of going on Twitter and saying, Hey, I’m available for work, which is like the most, desperate, thing that, that, that you can do. And it just reeks of desperation. Like whenever I see someone that’s like, Hey, I’m available for work.

It does not come across to me. Like. Oh, finally, you have availability. I can’t wait. I’m stumbling over myself to work with you. It’s like you really need work bad. That that’s what it says to me as a prospective client. It’s like, you’re desperate. That’s, that’s not the message you want to project. So we’re going to talk about something you can do instead that positions you as a professional, as someone who is, not desperate as someone, that it would be an honor and a privilege for me to get to work with you.

So we’ve got an idea for that. And then we have handling slash avoiding the wrong clients. I think we kind of already talked about that, getting paid, and then client’s onboarding experience. Well, I’m going to let you steer the ship, Dan.

Dan: [01:01:04] I think getting paid is exciting and I think we could, yeah. Maybe talk about that more next time, because we’re going to be talking all about pricing and packaging we could touch on getting paid today, but people might have to just wait and listen to the next show, which is all about the money, all about getting paid, how to price your service.

I think I do want to, I do want us to talk a bit about the pulling, not pushing because we’ve kind of touched. We’ve touched on this in terms of just trying to attract people, but now let’s go one level in and you have attracted someone. How do you actually convert a prospect into a client? And you do it the same way, right?

By, by not trying to try to force it.

Sean: [01:01:44] same exact thing. So for the daily content machine, here’s how I do it. They fill out the form, the questionnaire. Then I, I do my research and if, if it doesn’t, you know, sometimes there’s immediate red flags and I’m like, Nope, not going to be a good fit. Thanks. Sometimes it’s, it’s not like it’s a bad client.

Sometimes it’s just like their format. Isn’t going to work for us, you know, or something like that. So we, we disqualify at that point, but if so far we’re qualifying, the next step is to schedule your consultation call and I do call it a consultation call. And in the call scheduling process in the email we send to prospective clients.

I explain, in fact, I could just literally pull this up. For the educational value of the podcast, I will just read it right off. How about that?

Dan: [01:02:37] So much value.

Sean: [01:02:39] Schedule your console. See, I just have a template in our, our help desk. Okay. Thanks so much for getting in touch. I’d love to discuss how we can help your business. The next step is to schedule your consultation call there’s a link. The reason this meeting has a 90 minute runtime is because this is not merely an overview of our service.

It is a strategy strategy session to plan out how the daily content machine will work for you. We don’t just want to produce video clips. We want to make sure we help you reach your goal. Think of it as a paid content strategy session only I’m providing it upfront for free in the assumption that this is the beginning of a long and fruitful relationship.

Some clients need more strategy and direction than others. If what you’re doing now is working well and the way you produce your recordings already fits with what we need for our service. The call may be shorter than 60 minutes. Otherwise we may want to take the time to discuss a better production strategy.

Hence the 90 minute block to be safe, whether we end up working together or not, you’ll come away from the consultation call with clarity and direction. Look forward to speaking with you soon. And I’m going to put all of that. Into the community chat for members. So they don’t have to worry about transcribing that and they can reuse it.

Okay. So there you go. Where were we Dan?

Dan: [01:04:11] You were talking about once you have the prospect sell by pulling, not by pushing.

Sean: [01:04:17] Right. So that’s effectively, what we’re doing here is we’re providing a strategy session where in most cases we do take up the full 90 minutes. And Dan, the first 60 minutes are me. Listening to them asking questions, helping them come up with a good strategy, providing ideas. I am acting as if I am being paid for this strategy call.

I’m acting as a paid consultant and they have not done business with me yet. They have not given me any money, but I’m doing that upfront because in doing so, I am positioning myself as a partner with them. What am I communicating implicitly that I am interested in your success. Essentially, I am providing no strings attached value to this prospect.

I’m helping them. I’ve got on a number of calls. I will say the close rate has been pretty good, but there are a number of calls where the client isn’t ready or isn’t a good time or whatever, but they always appreciate. The time that I’ve invested. I don’t see it as a waste. It’s just a part, it’s the part of doing business.

It’s part of doing business well, and they all have positive perceptions of the brand. So they all, you know, whether they’re ready or not, or it’s a good fit or not, they come away with a good perception and very likely they will recommend other people to us, not to mention in some cases, if it’s not a good fit, like perfectly for them, or it’s just not a good time or whatever, I oftentimes will bring up.

A referral thing. Right? So like, Hey, well, just so you know, if you do send people our way, et cetera. so it’s, it’s all just winds all the way around, but let’s talk about like, kind of breaking this down, sell by polling, not by pushing. This is, this is all, all you do. You just provide value upfront instead of trying to transact route right away.

How do you think people feel after I’ve given them an hour of free consultation? Well, that creates the whole, like we talked about in the last episode, the whole, like, I just want to give you money. Right? It’s just like, you’re just being helpful. You’re clearly interested in helping me succeed. So like, I, it just like it bridges all of the gaps and any amount of like, uncertainty about whether this is a good fit or not is just overwhelmed by the sense that Sean has my best interest in mind.

So, you know what, let’s just do this. Like, people like to do business with good people and you are communicating to, to others that you are a good person by providing value upfront and not worrying about transacting. And it’s actually, it’s super freeing. When you do this, you start just going around to people and you just start helping, like with no expectation of anything in return.

Like not like. Hmm. I know how the rule of reciprocity works and I gave you something. So tick tock, you know, it’s not like that. It’s just, it’s more like trusting that rule. Like it’s all gonna work out. You know, some people think of it as karma, right. Just do the right thing. Like what goes around, comes around basically.

It’s it just makes things simpler. It’s like just, just help people. I know, it almost sounds naive, you know, like, like, Oh yeah, just do nice stuff. And I guess people will throw money at you, but like, am I, am I doing a good enough job explaining that it’s a little more than just something that’s naive, like, you know, hope it all works out.

Dan: [01:07:46] Well, let’s let’s let’s make sure that we establish that. We talked about, pro bono, which is just doing something for someone to establish a relationship. And then what we’re talking about now, like those consultation calls, those are in the context of the person being interested in our actual service.

They’re our prospect, which means the idea has at least crossed their mind that they will pay us money. What we’re trying to do now is close the deal. We’re trying to get them to end up saying. Yeah, I feel good about this. Actually. I want to pay you this much money for your

Sean: [01:08:19] And just, just to clarify, technically you’re right. If you’re kind of defining the section we’re in, which is like, technically, this is the part where we would close the deal if we did, but just to really like draw out the nuance here. That’s not my mindset. My mindset is not one of I’m just trying to close the deal.

In fact, the opposite. I’m almost actively not trying to close the deal and I’m trying to get the prospect to close the deal themselves. So to that end, I do not even tell them. And this is just the, you know, the, the current setup of our sales funnel. Given that we do not have a front facing website that lists packages and pricing.

I do not divulge the packages or the price until asked. So now we’re getting, we’re getting real insider here. So like people will actually know and they will, they will kind of get to be able to witness this if they’re listening right now. And they’re actually interested in hiring us for the daily content machine and they talk to me, they’ll see this happen.

But I, I do not tell you the price until you ask me why? Because if I just tell you the price, I go out away out of my way to tell you the price. There’s a number of problems with that. You may not be ready for it. So it comes across as an expense instead of an investment. You may have other objections just to use a sales term, right?

Like reasons for hesitancy as to why you may not do business with me. That have not yet been voiced. I have not addressed them. I have not answered them. I have not. put you at ease with regard to those concerns. So that has not yet happened, but those objections, remain, they persist. Nonetheless, they are there under the surface.

Unvoiced I haven’t yet uncovered them, but by throwing the price at you now, suddenly you’re like, okay, I didn’t ask for that. Now I’m thinking in terms of giving money to you, money going out, you know, accounts payable right now, I’m thinking of you as an expense and subconsciously I’m thinking of all of these other things that were actually kind of holding me back a little bit that were making me unsure about hiring you that I haven’t even yet voiced.

So what will happen as a result is. You the sales person. And I know you’re not thinking of yourself that way, which is fine, but just that’s the term we’ll use for now. you, lemme, let me think about this. You will convince yourself that price was the reason they didn’t go with you. So that’s the ultimate result.

That’s the end result is they will not go with you. You won’t close the deal and it will be for. reasons and objections that they did not voice, but you will believe to be due to price because you brought it up prematurely. Okay. So you will go throughout your business and your life convincing yourself that you didn’t close that deal because of the price and your prices were too high, and then you’ll lower them and it’s just all kinds of problems.

So you’re just causing all kinds of problems by going out of your way to be like, here’s the price? Wait until you’re asked for the price to provide it. Because then, you know, the prospect is ready. So here’s what I do. I listened to them. I ask questions. I strategize, I provide an hour of consultation for free as if I were paid pro bono.

Then I ask this magic question. This is the magic question is my favorite question. What else? It’s the most beautiful question. Did we talk about that last episode or was I talking to someone else about this?

Dan: [01:12:10] I think you, I think you’ve talked to me about this. I don’t know if we mentioned it

Sean: [01:12:14] Well, I’m gonna say it again. Magic of seven. Most people do not have someone else to listen to them who is interested in them. Who wants to hear them talk? Prob probably not anyone in their house or, or otherwise. It’s like, you know, people are interested about themselves. They’re looking out for number one.

So that’s why they go to therapy. Cause like someone’s paid and trained to listen to you and it feels really good. They listen, they reflect back. like we talked about in a, what is it? A four 28 episode, four 28, the power of empathic listening. Confirm me on that. If you have not listened to this episode, this will change your life.

Go listen to the empathic listening. Episode. but the therapists are trained in that they’re listening to you. Yeah. Four 28. Thank you, Dan. they listen, they reflect the feeling. They rephrase the content back to you. The kind of act as a mirror, helping you feel heard. This is so rare that we pay people to listen to us.

Okay. That’s how rare it is. So when you listen to people, you’re giving them a very valuable gift. It’s not something that they find very often, so they will, they will feel really good about this. Like, they’ll feel good about you. Right? And so once we’ve strategized with them, we’ve provided value. We’ve asked questions.

We then say, what else? The reason this comes across as such a tremendous gift is it’s like, okay, it’s one thing to listen to me. Talk for a little while about one thing. But surely if Dan, if you listened to me, talk a little bit about one thing. You might be like, okay, you know, that took a lot of energy.

let’s move on from that, you know, like maybe we talk about you. Maybe we talk about the weather. Maybe we talk about business, but it is almost nonexistent outside of a paid therapist for someone to not just listen to you, talk about one thing, but to indulge you and listen to. Yeah. Even more so like what else, what other questions do you have?

What other concerns do you have? What other struggles do you have? What, right. So we’re saying what, what, what, what do not say, do, do not say, do you have any other questions? Because again, there, there is this, there is this intrinsic kind of societal IM implicit rule. That’s like, don’t just keep talking about yourself.

And we all know, we kind of don’t want to listen to anyone else drone on about themselves. So there’s, there’s just this kind of, we get it, you know? So we’re naturally, like, we, we feel that we sense that like, okay, it’s time to move on from this. Right. And so when you say, do you have any other, do you have anything else?

You’re, it’s a yes or no question. First of all, and your engineering, the no result. Because they will feel that intrinsic pole, like it’s time to move on and they, every single time they will say no. So if you ask, do you the yes or no question, you engineer the no result. Don’t ask. Do you instead ask what, what other questions do you have?

What other concerns do you have? What else? And you will uncover all of the objections. This is why it’s the magic question. So you handle all of the objections before you even get to price. Finally, I promise you, I promise you. I promise you. No one will ask you what the price is before they’ve handled their own objections.

If you’re asking them what else say, what other concerns do you have if they have three concerns, and they’re curious about the price, they will tell you the three concerns. When you say, what other concerns do you have? They’re not going to ignore the three concerns and be like, what’s the price. They’re not going to do that because price is not the objection.

You just convinced yourself. It was because you skipped over this part. Is this making sense?

Dan: [01:16:25] It is, but I’ve seen people ask her the price at two different points. There’s some people start with it though. Like some people will just right before you’ve had any of this call, your people just reach out and be like, Hey, the service looks great. What’s it cost.

Sean: [01:16:38] Yeah, can I, can I,

Dan: [01:16:39] that mean they have no objections?

Sean: [01:16:41] can I address that?

Dan: [01:16:43] Of course.

Sean: [01:16:45] So when someone comes to you and they’re like, what’s the price, what’s the price, what’s the price. This could be a red flag, or it could just be kind of a societal norm. Everyone’s just like, what’s the price, you know, like that’s just kind of what you do. Here’s how you tell the difference.

If they come to you and they’re like, what’s the price? This is, this is the way that you circumnavigate that. Right. Because we don’t want to just immediately answer the question, because now you’ve positioned yourself as an expense instead of as an investment to this prospect. Right? So you say, you know, totally happy to talk about that.

What I want to do is make sure first that I’m actually able to provide value to you and we’re able to help you achieve your goals before we worry about any compensation to me. So you see what we’ve done there, we’ve refocused the conversation on value to the client. What is it that they get out of this?

Like, Hey, I don’t even want to worry about you giving me money until I know that I can help you succeed until I know I can solve your problem until I know I can help you achieve your goals. And to that end, I have a few questions. Okay. So we’ve just righted this train. We’ve put the train back on the tracks and now we’re good.

Okay. At this point they either go, Oh yeah, sure. And they answer your questions, which is a good sign or they say, well, no, I just, just, just tell me the price. That’s a bad sign. That’s a red flag. If that happens. You said you basically end the relationship. You end the discussion. I’m not saying goodbye.

Hang up the phone necessarily. But at this point, make a mental note. This is a red flag. This client’s not going to work out. Naturally conclude the conversation and move on.

Dan: [01:18:33] Yeah. That’s that’s an important distinction between someone who, if they’re, if they’re thinking of nothing, but the price, they’re not really. Sold. I don’t think they’re really sold on that. They even needed. I think they’re just kind of shopping,

Sean: [01:18:48] Exactly. Exactly. They’re just shopping around. So if they ask it upfront, That’s how you circumnavigate. If they respond positively great. You move on the price. Won’t come up until later after you’ve handled the objections, as long as you give them the opportunity to express them by asking what else, what other, what other concerns?

otherwise, yeah, I think, I think people

Dan: [01:19:10] so it seems like you’re getting people to the point where like, when you do bring up the price, the only reason the price should be a barrier is like pure cashflow is if the person. He goes, I’m so sold on this and I just don’t have the money or I’m so sold on this and I, yeah.

Sean: [01:19:24] Like the objection absolutely can be the price point, but the thing is it’s so often not, but you convince yourself because you’ve created false positives. It was your own fault. You engineered the objection and it was fake, but you convinced yourself. It was real.

It’s not to say that price can never be the objection, but if you do it the way that I’ve I’ve, I’ve laid it out here in order, by the time you reach that point and they balk. You know, it is the true objection because the worst thing is like, not knowing why they’re not doing business. I’m really, it’s like they don’t trust you.

And really it’s like, they’re not sure about certain things and you just, you never discover them. Okay.

Dan: [01:20:08] There’s there’s, there’s so much else, but I feel like

Sean: [01:20:11] two more, two more rapid fire, two more of our bullet points here.

Dan: [01:20:15] I kinda don’t want, I mean, let’s see what we think of this. Cause we’ve already talked about getting clients, but we’ve also got a bullet here for getting your first client. And I do kind of like the idea if we can. I like the idea of taking a person who’s never gotten a client before to, okay. You’ve got them.

You’ve got your first. Client. I don’t know if we can do that in the time we have left in the show.

Sean: [01:20:44] Just to

Dan: [01:20:44] I already

Sean: [01:20:45] the form of a question.

Dan: [01:20:46] Yeah. Well, okay. Let’s do the simple one. Sean. I’ve never, I’ve never gotten a client before. How do I get my first client?

Sean: [01:20:55] So this reminds me of, some people wonder, like, when am I ready for client work? Like, they’ve been doing a thing kind of like even trying it out, even doing it for yourself, side projects and whatnot. How do you know when you’re ready for client work to actually get paid? The answer? When people ask to pay you, that’s it.

If they’re asking to pay you, you’re ready. You’re not going to feel ready, but I’m telling you that you’re ready. When people are asking to pay you, Hey, can I hire you to do this? Will you do this? I love to send you money. Can you make that? You’re ready? It’s time to start doing client work. Now, what if people aren’t asking you.

And you feel ready? I’m ready. I’m ready to take some money, you know, put it in my bank. Well, that’s, that’s basically what we’re talking about here. All these different methods you’ve got pro bono, meaning find clients that you would like to work with, go to them, find out what they’re about, what they’re interested in, what would be valuable to them and provide that to them.

No strings attached. So like they’re really interested in. Building up their YouTube channel. They just started doing it, posting more videos there. And I see they’re sharing them on Twitter and they’re sharing them in their newsletter. They’re clearly, are you interested in YouTube and making good videos?

So I’m going to take these long form live streams. They did two months ago, I’m going to download those YouTube videos. I’m going to add some effects and some edits and some transitions and match their brand colors. And I’m going to send them a video and say, I loved this part of you in the live stream recently, but I thought a lot of people might’ve missed it.

Cause it was. One hour in. And so I made this clip for you. Hope it helps. That’s it? No strings attached value that super valuable sharing your yes. What we’re doing on the Shawn West podcast. I asked here with this build a profitable agency series behind the scenes of what you’re doing, documenting what you’re doing, showing the process.

I’m showing you how we’re building a media agency, how we’re finding clients. How we’re pricing and packaging our services, how we’re hiring, how we’re automating, how we’re coming up with our flagship offer, I’m documenting and it’s creating content content that markets, our service. You can do all of these things.

All of these methods are available, available to you. You have them at your disposal, even when you’re starting from zero, none of these require having a big audience. How did I do.

Dan: [01:23:16] I think you did pretty well. It’s just showing people like there are things they can do that, that you don’t already have to be established.

Sean: [01:23:24] So for that matter, let me give a little insight and then we’ll do two of our, two of our notes, and then we’ll conclude with questions. So if you’re listening live, this is the time to put in your questions. Like this is the value of your membership. We can, we can customize the show to you, give you real time feedback on your situation.

Be selfish. Don’t you don’t have to make the question general, make it specific. Tell us what your business is. Tell us what your services, tell us what clients you serve. Ask your questions now. So we are actually not, it’s kinda surprising cause we, we alluded to the fact in the last part that we’re not doing value based pricing for daily content machine.

And we’ll talk more about that next week in part three on pricing, your service. We’ll talk about packaging and. Why we’re not doing value based pricing. but also we’re not doing pro bono, even though we’re, we’re advocating for it. and there’s good reason for that. It’s not that the method doesn’t work.

It actually works really well. It’s just that there are more effective ways for us to get clients with the assets that we have at our disposal. So for instance, I do have an audience, so I know I started the show, opened up the show with saying, I want to give you some, some insights and things you can use if you don’t have an audience, but we do.

So I was actually exploring how can we do pro bono? And we were really looking into it and like, it was going to cost for the type of pro bono work we wanted to do at the daily content machine. Like it’s a lot of work to make these clips, but we were exploring it, but it was going to be hundreds of dollars per pro bono batch that we would send out.

And I realize that we’re not going to get every single client. You know, we’re going to give a gift here, a gift there, but that doesn’t mean to clients right there. Maybe we get one in four to convert. So really the client acquisition cost is four X that of, producing one batch. I’m like, Hmm, this is starting to kind of.

It’s starting to kind of grow a bit, you know, I don’t, I don’t know if I like this client acquisition costs ballooning up so much and I realized, wait a second, we haven’t even emailed our 25,000 person email list. Like that’s probably a good place to start. or like social media, you know? So by the time you’re seeing this, I will have, recently started up again, posting clips on social media, which I was kind of taking a break from sabbatical year and whatnot, but then.

Pandemic settling back down. What are you going to do? Guests? We’re going to record a podcast that we’re making clips again, right? Those clips promote daily content machine. So we’re putting out content, content marketing onto social platforms where I already have an audience and we’re sending emails to our existing newsletter subscribers.

You know what else I’m doing is I’m networking. I’m talking to people that I already know, and some of them are thinking about becoming clients. And even if they’re not, they know a lot of other people and so they can spread the word, all of those methods for me with where I’m at, make a lot more sense than doing pro bono.

so if you do have an audience, you know, you don’t necessarily have to start with pro bono, but that’s always available if you’re starting from zero. Okay. So the two things I wanted to talk about was creating the sales video. So if you go to daily content, and. You know, if you’re wondering, like, man, Shawn’s mentioning daily content machine alive and he’s promoting the service a lot again.

I told you at the beginning of the series, we’re pulling back the curtain on showing you how we’ve put this agency together. So of course I’m talking about it. Cause that’s the example I want to provide to you now. Also, if you’re interested and you want to work with us, Hey, get in touch. We’d love to work with you.

Daily content, I’m going to say it. I’m going to keep saying it, but if you go there, there’s a video. I made a video. And this was actually while I was still traveling. So I made this on an iPad. No excuses do the best you can with the tools you have. And I just use keynote on the iPad, you know, set a background, color, type, some texts like reuse some, icons and put together a presentation and recorded a little voiceover and people have responded really well.

To this video. In fact, some people have told me they’ve shared it with their teams as like, this is an example of a great video about your flagship service. Like we need to study this. The reason the video was so good is because I know the target audience intimately, it helps that the target audience is like six, seven figure business owners.

Of which I am one. And I know a lot of things about that. We talked a little bit about how we identified the sweet spot of the price point in the last episode. but the other thing is just, I know the mentality, I know the psychology of like what they’re thinking about, what their struggles are, what their goals are, and I’m able to, relate to that in this video.

So I scripted something up, it all starts with writing. but. It, it, it roughly follows the AI D a formula. You maybe have heard this before a I D a attention interest. dang it, Dan, is it decision action, but that doesn’t make sense. Yeah, it does. Yeah, it

Dan: [01:28:34] Desire it’s desire. It’s either decision or

Sean: [01:28:36] Thank you. Action is like, yeah.

Thank you. I’m sorry. Attention, interest desire. Action. we, we, we didn’t like super flesh out this bullet point in the outline, so I’m not gonna like, do a big, deep dive on aid right here. but more or less, I start off like bam, you know, attention is we turn your weekly show into daily content. You want to stay top of mind.

Why, why do you want to stay top of mind while you’re going to build your brand? You’re going to grow your audience. You’re going to get more clients. Right. Oh, I immediately get your attention because like, what do you want? I want to build my brand. I want to grow my audience. I want to stay top of mind.

I’m going to get more clients. I’m going to get paid. I’m getting your attention. Then I pique your interest. Like, what is it that you’re interested in? Well, I want this result and I don’t want to have to, I don’t want to have to do all of the editing myself cause that’s really time consuming. I don’t want to have to find all of the good moments in my hour long show.

Like I’m just going to be scrubbing through. I don’t want to have to edit out all the, all of the filler words. That just sounds terrible. so I’m, I’m kind of, this is also a little bit of agitating the pain, right? If you’re doing this yourself, You’re having to deal with all of these things and that’s not so fun or your pain might be, you’re not doing this to yourself and you’re not doing it at all.

So what’s the result. You’re unknown. You’re living in the land of obscurity, the invisible man, nobody knows you exist. That’s all also painful, right? You want to be known. You want people to be aware of you so they can do business with you. So I’m, I’m peaking your interest. Now, then we turned it into desire.

What is a picture of the future? Look like. When, when they decide to work with you, paint a picture of the future. Imagine the sun comes up. A new clip is going out a new piece of daily content. you gotta do it again. Daniel switch the camera. The sun comes up.

Dan: [01:30:38] You said

Sean: [01:30:40] A new piece of content, goes out every day, every day.

Just imagine every day, every day, that ends in the letter. Why you have a new video? It’s most of them down. In fact, it’s all, every single day, even weekends, you’re posting a video. How huge would that be? You, you know, you follow people who post every day and you think about them all the time. You know, whether it’s the Gary V’s or whatever they become first name, first name basis, right?

Household names, you talk to your friends and you say, Gary said this. And Gary said that it’s like, how is he doing that content? Top of mind every single day. Imagine that for your brand. Wow. Wow. Wow. That’s desire. Dan loves it. Dan loves

Dan: [01:31:27] That’s Owen. Wilson is who that is. And I won’t stand for

Sean: [01:31:32] And then action. Okay, well you want this? What are we, what are we going to do about it?

Easy. Schedule your consult today. Daily content boom. So attention.

Dan: [01:31:43] notice it’s it’s schedule the consult. It’s not work with us. It’s not some vague. It is an action, a concrete thing. They’ll

Sean: [01:31:50] great point. Very good point. Like it’s a, it’s an act, right? It’s like, do this. What, what is the next step? Not all of them. Just the next step. Attention, interest desire. Action. Study the last thing make an email course. Okay, so you need work. You lost a client, the project ended, you know, whatever it is, right.

You’re, you’re freelancing, you’re working on your own. You have your own consultation, business, whatever, right? You need some work. What do you do? You go to Twitter and you say, Hey, I’m available to work. Okay. Don’t do that. The problem with that is it reeks of desperation. It’s like, Ooh, they really need work.

Like they’re hurting for work. They’re desperate. They’ll probably do anything. That’s how it comes across. I’m sorry. I know you want it to come across like, Oh, Oh, I’ve been in such great demand and now I have a month open and now you can work with me. Sorry. The rest of us don’t see it that way. We’re just like that.

Person’s desperate. Like what kind of pro is, is going out there and saying like, you can now work with me. I’m now available. It’s like, well, you should always be available. And I get in touch and you tell me how it works. And I get on the wait list or whatever. Right. We schedule it. You don’t want to come across as desperate.

So when you need work, resist the urge to go blast out on Twitter. Hey, I need work. Retweets appreciated. Like just looks desperate. Here’s what you do. Instead make an email course. What is an email course? An email course is an autoresponder where someone signs up. And gets lessons over a period of time.

Let’s say there’s half a dozen lessons, six emails. You’re giving them a particular outcome. What is the desired outcome? Well, it depends on the prospect who is the client that you want, what are their struggles? What are their goals? What outcome are they looking for? Give them that outcome in the form of a six part email course.

Each day you deliver a lesson. Boom, here you go. And you’re actually helping them. You’re you’re not trying to like. You know, hold back or anything like don’t hold back. Just actually help them. Like, why are you still listening to this podcast over an hour in, because it feels like I’m not holding back.

There’s no ads. There’s no like, Oh, you know, but over here you get to see behind the curtain or whatever, you know, like, no, this is behind the curtain. You can tell, I have completely removed the. The governor, like in the, in the car that limits you from going so fast, right. I’ve removed that. I’m, I’m just giving all of it to you.

I’m just pulling back the curtain. You can sense that that’s why you’re here an hour later, because it’s like, Shawn’s just trying to help me. He’s trying to give me insights and value. They can sense that as well in your email course. So email course don’t hold back, give them value. Here’s the tip, not just at the end of the series.

But at the bottom of every single email, every single lesson in the PS, you say, if you need help with this, you can work with me directly, hit reply on this email. That’s it, that’s it. So every email that goes out, you’re providing value on a topic that is relevant to them, helping them solve a problem in the PS.

You’re saying reply, that’s it. That’s how you get clients without looking desperate. You simply make an email course. Simple. Not easy.

Dan: [01:35:18] Well, this is a good point.

Sean: [01:35:19] Yeah. You gotta do your research. can you find the lead magnet episode?

Dan: [01:35:26] Yes, how to create a lead magnet fast and get more

Sean: [01:35:29] it’s like in 20 minutes or something like that? That’s my, that’s my lead magnet rule. Yeah. but an email course is a little bit different from a lead magnet. A lead magnet is typically a thing like here is a PDF or a video or whatever.

It could be a series. but if you’re thinking of it as a thing, I kind of like the 20 minute rule, because problem is you don’t have a lead magnet. All right now. And you’re like, at some point I’ll do that. And it feels like a really big problem and a big project. And I say, look, give yourself 20 minutes, make a thing.

Whatever you have at the end of 20 minutes is your lead magnet. Launch it, ship it, improve it later. You can improve it once it’s made, but don’t just keep sitting there having not made it. Now. That’s that’s the lead magnet episode, episode three 53. How to make a lead magnet fast and get more email subscribers, Dan, just posted that.

but when it comes to the email course, what I would recommend is if you’re doing a six part email course, write it in six days each morning, give yourself. 20 minutes, you know, max yeah, 20 minutes. And once a day in the morning for 20 minutes for a duration of six days, write out your series. Or if you want to be crazy, you’re like me, like you just kind of do everything all at once.

Fine. You know, block out, you know, a few hours write the whole thing, but don’t take more than six days. Like just get it done, write it, write the first iteration, improve it later. I think we’ve provided a lot of value down for one episode.

Dan: [01:36:58] So much value and we didn’t even get through our whole outline. So there’s, we, we could, there’s some things. Things we could bring to the after show too. And we have

Sean: [01:37:05] questions. Let’s do questions.

Dan: [01:37:07] All right. The people have been waiting. They’re like, when are they going to get to these questions? Elliott said, making great content consistently and positioning yourself as an expert through doing this are some of the answers that I’m expecting to hear today.

He asked a question before the show started like a gentlemen. You said a question I have building on that basis. How do I find where I should be putting this content to get it in front of the right people? And he had a little context for that. He said, my girlfriend and I are in paid marketing, Facebook, Google, and Instagram.

Primarily he’s all about content, but his girlfriend seems to believe that without paid marketing, like ads, you can’t realistically get the content in front of enough. People. And Elliott’s saying he doesn’t really know how to respond other than, but I know people who do so. So how, where, where do you

Sean: [01:37:55] the building on fire. yeah, so obviously this is before we did the show. So I think we kind of went in a direction of content. Great. Content is a thing you should do and invest in longterm. But it’s a longterm strategy and there’s these other things that you can and should do sooner when you’re starting from zero and you don’t have an existing audience.

w what I don’t get into is paid ads because that’s not my area of specialty. I stay in my lane. This is what I know. I will tell you with the kind of recent Facebook iOS, 14 Apple ad tracking limitations that, that have been put in place. I’m really glad that I don’t rely on ads for, for my livelihood, you know, ads.

it’s not that they’re not effective. Like they really are when you have super personalized, advertising, which you’re able to do because Facebook. Tracks people to the degree that they do as they have been allowed to prior to iOS 14, but these new limitations are coming in where they’re basically telling businesses.

this is going to seriously hamper the effectiveness of your ads, like by 50% or more, because we just can’t be as effective with less tracking. And that’s just the reality of things like, like the landscape changes, right. There was a really nice period of five years or more where it was just like, wow, these Facebook ads are super effective because we can just get so extremely targeted on our ads.

it’s not to say there’s anything wrong with that. Like, if it makes sense, you know, paid acquisition platforms got to stay in business. you’re able to get really targeted messaging out there, find the right people. It makes a lot of sense. It’s just kind of building your house on sand. And like brand is like the rock brand is what will help you last outlast, the competition make you impervious to competition like brand is brand, is everything.

And just creating content that is valuable, build your brand, and sure you can do paid acquisition to build your audience and build your brand and like, you know, even transact in the short term. But I just, I just find that. I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m biased. Like I realized, obviously it works, but you don’t have to like, there’s so many ways to get clients con like, well, there’s really three key ways.

There’s three key ways to get clients. You got content, marketing, advertising, and affiliates, content marketing is just providing value. Building your brand. People come to you. They want to do business with you because you’ve helped them. Advertising is putting your message in front of people. You’re watching a show.

You’re watching a YouTube video. We’ll hang on interruption, check out this. You’re scrolling through Instagram interruption, check out this Twitter interruption, check out this hope. Hopefully it’s relevant. You know, hopefully it’s it’s okay. But like it’s just different. Seth Goden differentiates between the two, calling them interruption, marketing and permission marketing.

You know, it’s, it’s, it’s not that one is not, it doesn’t work. It’s just, it’s a new landscape, you know, and so fine. You know, use ads, have it be a tool, but if you rely entirely on it, there’s some downsides to it. I don’t know. I talked around the question a little bit. I don’t know how much that helps.

Dan: [01:41:32] You, you laid out, you made a, you made an important point. I want to make sure people pick up, which is differentiating between a strategy and a tactic because you were right. Like there was. Sweet spot. I see, I see this in the indie author community that I follow a lot where it’s like, Oh, I wish I’d started publishing with a Kindle at my novels on Kindle unlimited back in 2012.

Cause then everyone was millionaires. But now the algorithms and you hear that about Facebook and you hear it about Instagram and everything. And the problem with it is Facebook ads are a tactic. Putting stuff on, you know, Amazon stuff is a tactic. All these, all these things are tactics. And so people are like, well, what, what specifically Elliot asked where, where should I put the content to get it in front of the right people?

And. It’s not that that’s the wrong question, but it’s a tactical question rather than a strategic one, because just like Facebook ads, just like the efficacy of ad tracking is about to fall. And then two years from now who knows there’ll be some other revolution in ad in ad tech. I kind of hope not, but there probably will be.

And, and just like, you know, this is on Gary V has, it has always been, been a thing on, you know, like he. He, he was saying in like 2007 or 2008, get on Instagram. And everyone’s like, ah, what food pictures, I don’t get it. And then of course it turns out Instagram is where the content goes and he’s like, don’t sleep on tic talk.

He tends to be ahead of everybody with those things. However, his advice might be accurate and it might be like ahead of its time. And so it’s not a bad idea to listen to him, to figure out where attention is going, but at the same time, any one of those things is just a tactic. The strategy is. Get attention to your brand, build a brand focus on your brand because tactics come and go.

And if you build your entire business on the back of Facebook ads, we saw this. I remember hearing about this a few years ago when Facebook first started, first switch from organic to paid attention

Sean: [01:43:28] Yeah, it was

Dan: [01:43:29] a Facebook.

Sean: [01:43:29] you’d get a box of cereal and it’s like, become our fan on Facebook. And everyone’s just like doing all this free marketing for Facebook, building up their, their audience on Facebook. And it was like, why wouldn’t you? It’s this whole platform and infrastructure that helps you get your message out to people where they already are.

And then suddenly. Flip the switch and it’s like, okay, now you can reach 6% of them unless you pay.

Dan: [01:43:51] Unless you pay and everyone should have seen that coming because attention is super valuable. So guess what? You’re not going to be able to get it for free.

Sean: [01:43:58] But if you create a, you know, like the term is like sticky, right? So people stay, they don’t just kind of, you know, have one touch point and move on. You create a sticky brand, which is like, Story, you know, it’s driven by story. Like that’s what we’re hooked on. Why do you wanna keep watching the next show?

Why do you want to keep reading the next book in the series? It, because the story poles you, and so when you infuse your brand with your story, that’s a differentiating factor from anyone else who’s providing. What, what would otherwise be considered the same exact product or service?

Dan: [01:44:37] Yeah, well, because it’s, it’s costly to get people’s attention, like to reach out. And grab people. It costs money and the ways of doing it effectively keep changing. What you ultimately want is to create a brand that people seek out, right? Like the goal is you have to go, go grab the people’s attention, but then turn them into people who will seek you out.

Sean: [01:44:57] And not just seek, but create something worth talking about. Cause like what percentage of ads do you just. Talk to all of your friends about very, very few, like, you know, maybe some of the Superbowl ads or whatever are really engineered that way where it’s like almost too subtle, what product they’re pushing.

Cause it’s like entirely a funny story. But for the most part, we don’t talk about ads, but we do talk about content like, Hey, this was a really good whatever. Right. And we don’t even really remember that. Like, They were kind of trying to build their brand in this video. We just remember the story and I want to tune into the next installment.

So you’re creating something other people can talk about and, and spread the word about as well. and so it’s, it’s also just like, if you don’t have money, you can do a lot of the things we talked about in this episode. Whereas like, some people are like, I don’t have money to run on ads and then there’s the whole, like, is what you have.

Even working. This is the whole scaling thing. Hiring is scaling, running ads is scaling. All of these things are scaling. You want to scale what works, because if you take a bucket with holes, something that doesn’t work well and you scale it, you have a bigger bucket, the holes, you still have problems.

They’re just bigger problems. And trust me, it’s not fun. So you need to have something that works. Go work really hard to find something that works and then scale that. Don’t make the mistake I did. And thinking if we go bigger, all of our problems will magically be solved and you can fall into that trap with either hiring.

Like I’ll just delegate what I’m doing to everyone else. And then, and you’ve never even asked, like, is what I’m doing actually working. Cause it, you’re just going to automate the doing of the things that aren’t working and it’s going to cost you a lot of money. Same thing can be with ads when you get your message or your offer in front of 10 people.

How many of them convert? And you’re like, Mmm. Well, either you say, I don’t know, which is a problem, or you say, let me do some math. I think a finger it’s like, no, a finger, a finger is not a person. You need a whole person. And you’re like, well, it’s definitely not 10%. And it’s like, well, then you have a problem.

You know? Like we, we, we need a good conversion rate. If your message or your offer is in front of the right people. And you’ve, you’ve engineered it, right. It should convert. If it’s not converting right now. And you run ads. It will not convert at a bigger scale and cost you a lot of money. So if you talk to 10 people in your target audience, and none of them do any business with you, that’s not such a great sign.

You might want to go back to the drawing board. What’s our, what’s our next question.

Dan: [01:47:40] Sure. Well, Jeremy asked a question about paid advertising. So conveniently we’ve knocked out. I feel like we’ve knocked out two with one stone cause he asked, does paid advertising ever make sense? If so, when, and we basically said, when you actually are ready to scale, like when you know you have an offer that converts. You know, put some, put some ads together, test them to see if they’re effective or hire someone to do that and then scale. Right. Because if you’re getting, you know, if you’re making a hundred bucks off of, off of an ad and you’re spending 50 bucks to get the hundred, spend 50,000, then make a hundred, like,

Sean: [01:48:13] On that note, can I make a clip that I’ve been wanting to make that’s related?

Dan: [01:48:17] course always, that’s why we’re here.

Sean: [01:48:18] That’s why we’re here. okay.

How do you create an offer that converts here’s a strategy offer some free consultation sessions, free strategy sessions. You can put this out to your network. You can send it to your email list. You can put it on social media to your audience. You’re like I don’t have any email newsletter. I don’t have any, Melissa, I don’t have an audience.

Fine. Go in a Facebook group, go, go where people already are and offer this. Hey, I want to give you a free strategy session. I’m going to help you solve this problem. Whatever that problem is, needs to be. Whatever the prospect, the person you want to work with has needs to be something they actually want.

So you say, I’m going to give you a free strategy session. What are you doing? The strategy session? You ask them questions. You listen and you take notes. And that’s all you do until they ask you for your advice. But what you’re doing in this process, you do 10 of these. You can maybe do that in a week.

Maybe if you, if you have other things going on, maybe do that in the course of two weeks, don’t take longer than two weeks. Get 10 strategy sessions scheduled with your target prospect. Ask them questions. Listen, take notes. When you’re done. Compare your notes across all 10. All 10 people. You’ve got all of these, let’s say Google documents, right?

You’ve got notes written out from all of your calls. What are we looking for? We are looking for commonalities. What did nine out of 10 of them say they struggled with what did eight out of 10 of them say, I really wish this could be solved. You’re doing research to figure out what people actually struggle with what they want solved and what they would likely pay.

To have you do for them. So you do this research upfront by doing free strategy sessions. Then you take that information and you go create that product or that service offering. Alright, last question.

Dan: [01:50:17] We got the last question. And this is an interesting one. Alex, Alex is asking, he’s saying in the context of doing pro bono client work, he wants to specialize in email marketing and email copywriting. But here’s the thing. Whenever he kicks off with a new client, there’s always more stuff that needs to get done.

He’s saying things like website performance, other technical stuff. These are things I’d consider. Valuable and important. So, so he ends up doing these things for the client that are not email marketing and copywriting. And so he asks, am I making my life more complicated than necessary? Or is it a form of procrastinating from the real work, which is sending automated email campaigns.

And this strikes me, Sean, as one of those questions that he already knows the answer to,

Sean: [01:51:02] That’s exactly what I was going to say.

Dan: [01:51:05] but he needs us to tell it to him. So let’s do that.

Sean: [01:51:08] How about you, Dan?

Dan: [01:51:12] The other thing Alex said was that he gets into doing this like technical stuff with websites and things like that in the chat, Alex going no too bad. You asked on the lie, you asked on the live show and that’s what happens. He knows it. So he finds the stuff interesting. He wants to, he likes learning it, but Alex, it is a distraction from the thing you want to do.

It’s a distraction in two ways. It’s not actually giving you practice. And creating testimonials for your work as an email marketer, but it’s also distracting the client from what your value proposition is. Because remember, we are talking about this importance of focus. You don’t go to a client and say, I can do this and do I can fix your website and write your emails?

No, you say I can write your emails because then they know you as the email marketing guy and maybe they’ll hire you to do email marketing or. As we were saying before, which is even more powerful. They’ll go to other people and say, get this guy to write your emails. You’re not benefiting from that. If you’re never getting around to writing emails.

Now you’re developing a reputation as someone who fixed people’s websites. So if you want to become an expert at fixing people’s websites, great lean into that. But if what you actually want to do is email automation and copywriting. You have to say no. Even though you don’t want to that’s what’s at the core to, this is you’re saying yes to too much stuff.

And so that either means when you go to someone you say, sorry, I can’t help you with that. Maybe I can help you find someone who can let’s do some email copywriting, or if they say, you know what, I’d love to do email automation, but I can’t yet because my website’s a mess. Just say, all right, well, get in touch when you’ve got that fixed and then go find another client.

Sean: [01:52:55] You’re also diluting their ability to be your brand and master. Because when they think back to what it was that Alex provided them, they’re going to think, well, he did a bunch of stuff. So the next time they come across someone, who’s like, I need email marketing. You’re not so much the obvious answer.

You’re not the obvious referral because you do a bunch of stuff. And I say, here’s the thing. Like I know people who do a bunch of stuff, including video. And they’re not my first choice for video. I know a bunch of people who do a lot of things, including photography, and they’re not my first choice for photography, just how it works.

Dan: [01:53:46] Yeah. Yeah, that’s right. If you, if you want to specialize, you gotta specialize. Right? Cause people don’t know. And Alex is saying in the chat that, you know, he knows what we’re saying is true, but it’s so hard. And I linked him to episode four 45 of the Sean was podcast, which is how and when to say no,

Sean: [01:54:02] Yeah, we kind of like, we got a lot of episodes here. A lot of, a lot of shows here, Dan, but I don’t feel bad, Alex. Like, I’m the exact same way. I know the answers and I just need to hear someone else. So it goes into my years and I process it differently. So we’re happy to do that service cause we all need it. Dan, you want to wrap this up?

Dan: [01:54:26] Sean, where can people go to find us online?

Sean: [01:54:30] You can go to Shawn and sign up for membership. If you would like to be. The person asking the questions in the show, getting the answers. We’d be happy to help you out with that in the community. You also get access to all of our courses and training, including the daily content machine training it’s in the vault.

All, what is it? Total now, $9,000 or no spoilers. It’ll be $9,000. When I release a new course in a few months, that’s a different topic. I think it’s $8,500 worth of courses right now. That’s in membership. open-loop Stan Shaun Sign up, become a member, support the show. We appreciate your support.

We’d love to see you inside the community. Dan, where can people find you online?

Dan: [01:55:15] No, you can find And I like how you told people about this Phantom course that they will also get

Sean: [01:55:23] Ah, you know, I wasn’t planning on it, but

Dan: [01:55:25] But there it is.

Sean: [01:55:26] there it is. Alright. Get some outro music as a good one as another solid like pillar episode, I think.

Dan: [01:55:37] it was a real good show. I think we’re onto something with this series. Maybe we should build an agency.

Sean: [01:55:41] Wait until next episode. Got to get the room cam set up. Cause they’re just like, Sitting here when we, when we record the podcast, if you don’t watch on video, back in the day, he used to have a room cam wide angle. It would show like the whole studio. I feel like giving you the bird’s eye view or whatever. and we don’t have that set up in the new

Dan: [01:56:40] Where are you

Sean: [01:56:41] So it was just me and

Dan: [01:56:42] in your studio.

Sean: [01:56:44] we’re just sitting here like split screen, just kind of like, when’s the music kind of, and you know,

Dan: [01:56:49] I wonder how long we have to sit here. No, that’s, that’s good

Sean: [01:56:51] yeah. So next week we’re actually going to build an agency. No, no.

Dan: [01:56:55] We’re thinking about it.

Sean: [01:56:58] We’re doing it.

Dan: [01:56:58] that we started before we started this episode, we were like, I don’t think this one will be, as long as last week, it’ll be, you know, bright and

Sean: [01:57:04] Oh my goodness. Look how long we went. I did say that. Wow. Wow. Where.

Dan: [01:57:15] The worst.