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This week seanwes Community member Martine Ellis joins me to share her podcasting journey and how she created a detailed checklist to help streamline her podcast workflow. We talk about how niching down can help you attract a dedicated audience, and how to spend less time creating a podcast without sacrificing quality. We also walk through Martine’s 9 step podcast workflow checklist and share our favorite podcast tools and tricks.

Highlights, Takeaways & Quick Wins:
  • There are tons of people out there that share your passion, regardless of what it is.
  • When you start a show, think about the outcome you want, the kind of people you want to reach, and the kind of community you want to build.
  • When it comes to starting a podcast, just dive in and do it.
  • Don’t be afraid to stop, refocus, and move on to something else.
  • Always start with a takeaway in mind.
  • You can spend hours tweaking your voice and being a perfectionist, but that’s wasted time.
  • Whenever you can, add value in exchange for an email address.
Show Notes
  • 03:14 Aaron: Hey Martine, welcome! Tell the listeners a little bit about yourself. How did you get into podcasting, why did you decide to start a podcast? You told me that you started a podcast, shut it down, then launched a new one. What happened?
  • 03:31 Martine: How I got into podcasting, in one word: knitting. That was unexpected, wasn’t it? You didn’t expect me to say knitting.
  • 03:42 Aaron: I didn’t know that was a thing.
  • 03:43 Martine: For quite some time, I wrote a blog about hand made crafts, with a bit of an emphasis on knitting, because it’s my favorite craft. I became aware that there were lots of knitting podcasts out there, because I listened to a lot of them.
  • 04:02 Aaron: You told me this in advance, on our call earlier, and this was shocking to me. Knitting podcasts?
  • 04:10 Martine: There’s a massive knitting podcast community, because when you’re knitting, you can listen to something at the same time—what better thing to listen to than a podcast?

Niching Down

  • 04:18 Martine: I listened to a lot of shows, and I found that there wasn’t a knitting podcast that dealt with knitting and other crafts (I’m not just all about the knitting). I wanted to create a podcast that combined knitting with other crafts, and my unique selling point for the show is where I live, Guernsey. People want to know about Guernsey as well.
  • 04:51 Aaron: I did not know where this was. I had to look it up. It’s a small island, right?
  • 04:59 Martine: Yes. The people who listen to my show, which was called the iMake podcast, were really interested in Guernsey. Someone earlier mentioned the Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society. People who have read that book are interested in knitting and in Guernsey.

There are tons of people out there that share your passion, regardless of what it is.

  • 05:27 Aaron: How did that show go for you?
  • 05:49 Martine: It went really well. I did just over 80 episodes over the course of a couple of years, and it was great fun. I really enjoyed it. I found that it was a heck of a lot of work, as you know. I’m not hugely techy, so the editing and stuff took me quite a while. It was really successful. The people I met from podcasting were just fab. I’m sure you find that in your podcasting area, that you meet people like that, too.
  • 06:22 Aaron: I’ve met some really incredible people. Unbelievably awesome (you know who you are).
  • 06:27 Martine: It’s so inspiring. It really is. It was great, it was very successful, but very niche.
  • 06:39 Aaron: You stopped after 80 episodes. Why?
  • 06:41 Martine: I was going in a different direction. My podcast was part of a small creative business that I ran—I design knitting patterns, and I have a few income streams off the back of that.
  • 06:55 I decided to take things in a slightly different direction. I had to make a decision based on the amount of time I put into creating the podcast in relation to the return I got off the back of it. Do you know what I mean? I decided to quit while I was ahead. Always leave your audience wanting more. Then I found that I really missed it, because I love podcasting.
  • 07:51 Aaron: You missed it, so I’m guessing that you decided to start another one.
  • 08:02 Martine:  A lot of my previous listeners were very sweet, and they sent me emails and things saying, “Are you going to start another show?” Every time, I kept going back to them and saying, “If I could find a way to refine my workflow and make it take a bit less time to produce a show, I would absolutely do another show.” I kept saying that. I meant it.
  • 08:27 Aaron: Right. So, you did.
  • 08:30 Martine: Yeah. I looked at the process. I streamlined things significantly. I changed the format and the emphasis of the show, and I’m back podcasting, 20 episodes in.
  • 08:44 Aaron: Congratulations! What’s the name of that show?
  • 08:46 Martine: My new show is called Creative Me. “Me” as in me, but also because of my initials, Martine Ellis.
  • 08:57 Aaron: There’s a takeaway there that I really want to highlight. I get asked so often, people email me saying, “I want to start a podcast, but I’m not sure if this is a good idea. Can I get an audience talking about this thing? Can I cover these different topics?”

When you start a show, think about the outcome you want, the kind of people you want to reach, and the kind of community you want to build.

  • 09:32 Choosing a very specific niche topic can really help with that. At the same time, I also think that you should just start. There’s so much to do and you’ll have so much to learn, you just have to get started and let things evolve. Yeah, maybe you’ll get to a point where you’ll say, “This show doesn’t align with my long term goals anymore, and I want to talk about something else.”
  • 10:03 You have to be okay with saying, “This was my project and my podcast for a while, but it’s time for me to shut this down and start this new thing.” Your two podcasts were related enough that you got some overlap on listeners, right?
  • 10:23 Martine: Yeah, absolutely. That was a big thing for me. It was really scary, saying, “I’m going to finish iMake. I’m going to stop,” because I did have a really engaged audience, and I knew that they would be really upset. Equally, I knew that it was the right thing to do. I think it’s a great takeaway that you highlight there.

Don’t be afraid to stop, refocus, and move on to something else.

  • 10:52 Equally, when I started the show, I just went, “You know what? I’m going to start a podcast. I wonder how they do that. I’m just going to do it.” I totally agree with you.
  • 11:01 Aaron: Good for you for diving in. I spent way too long thinking about it, planning, and trying to make everything perfect when I should have just been doing and putting stuff out there.
  • 11:14 Martine: The learning is incredible when you just dive in and do it. I learned so much from just starting with a cheap USB microphone. I had never touched GarageBand in my life, so there was a big learning curve.

Martine’s Podcast Workflow

  • 11:44 Aaron: I haven’t made a pretty PDF that you can download, but I did talk about my personal podcasting process on episode 24 of The Podcast Dude. But I really like your podcasting workflow PDF, because there are nine sections, and you made checkboxes for all the different parts.
  • 12:17 Let me give an overview of the entire process, and then we’ll dive in. There are nine steps:
    1. Outline
    2. Recording and editing
    3. Show notes
    4. Images
    5. Podcast hosting
    6. Getting everything into WordPress
    7. Social sharing
    8. Lead magnet
    9. Take care of extra tasks

1. Outline Episode

  • 13:24 Aaron: How do you outline a show? How does that all get started?
  • 13:28 Martine: I work in Google Docs. I like working there, because it feels less cluttered than drafting in the back of WordPress. I just do some very simple bullet points covering the beginning, the middle, and the end of the show, and I expand from there. Pretty simple start, really.
  • 13:49 Aaron: Awesome. I do something very similar with mind mapping in MindNode. I’ll start with the point of the episode. What do I want to talk about? What’s the takeaway? I write down everything I can think of, and then I worry about organizing. That’s the way my brain works. If I tried to write an episode from start to finish, even in bullet form, it wouldn’t go very well.
  • 14:17 Martine: I think I probably learned that from one of your shows, actually.

Always start with a takeaway in mind.

2. Record & Edit Audio

  • 14:30 Martine: I’m not a techy. I hear a lot of podcasters, often male, talking about gear.
  • 14:48 Aaron: You guys call it kit, right?
  • 14:50 Martine: Kit, yes! Is that a British thing?
  • 14:53 Aaron: I had a British voiceover artist (Jay Britton) on an episode, and he called it “kit.” I couldn’t stop laughing.
  • 15:00 Martine: Yeah, kit, definitely! I’m not really that into kit, although I must say that I did treat myself to a Blue Yeti microphone recently. I love it, but I love it because it’s pretty. It is a beautiful mic. I record the show in GarageBand. I have my Google Doc outline on my iPad in front of me so I can read from that. I don’t read it word for word, but I work off the outline. And I start recording!
  • 15:43 Aaron: You use a pop filter and some headphones, yeah?
  • 15:46 Martine: I do, yes, absolutely. I edit on the fly, really.

I edit as I go, and then I do a final listen-through and edit at the end.

  • 15:58 I listen to any breaks in audio, but that’s as much as I do. My show has a very relaxed feel to it, so I don’t worry about all the “ums” and “ahs” and things like that.
  • 16:09 Aaron: You’re pretty good at speaking, too. So you listen back, you edit as needed, and then you export it as an mp3 file out of GarageBand?
  • 16:19 Martine: Yeah, I do. My shows are short, typically about 15 minutes, so I try to listen through the mp3 as well. I listen to it on a different device or something like that. I might listen to it on my phone, just to make sure that it sounds okay.
  • 16:36 Aaron: I’m curious. Do you do any processing inside of the GarageBand? Do you do any presets, any of the EQ or compressor or limiter plugins?
  • 16:45 Martine: No, I don’t even know what that is.
  • 16:50 Aaron: That’s interesting.
  • 16:52 Martine: This is going to make you laugh, but my husband is actually a sound engineer. But I need to do it myself, you know?
  • 17:02 Aaron: I hear you. I’m curious: If I made a screencast just showing you the basics, would you consider doing it? Or would you prefer to keep it simple? If you record at a decent level and you don’t have a bunch of clipping in your episode, I don’t think it would make a huge difference. If you could watch a 10 or 15 minute video of me explaining how to do the basics, would that be something you’d be interested in doing?
  • 17:37 Martine: Are you validating a course idea on me? I think you are, aren’t you?
  • 17:41 Aaron: I actually already made a Podcasting With Garageband course (coming soon).
  • 17:46 Martine: I know. I definitely would. 10 or 15 minutes is about the length of my attention span as well, so definitely. I’d be up for that.

Rubbish sound quality is a put off, but it’s important that the host speaks clearly and in an engaging way.

  • 18:09 Martine: If it’s really, really poor sound, then it will put me off. Yes, a 10 or 15 minute video would definitely interest me.
  • 18:19 Aaron: Lately, I’ve been obsessed with the idea of not doing any processing at all. It’s so easy for me, because I don’t even have to think about it anymore. I can mix voices I’ve never heard and know what to do instantly, but that’s just because I’ve done it for years. I like the idea of trying to do a good job with a raw recording and shipping it as it is. You can spend two hours tweaking your voice and being a perfectionist, but that’s wasted time. In the end, it isn’t going to matter that much.
  • 18:54 Martine: I think there’s a certain standard you want to achieve for your message to get across clearly. The same applies to writing a blog post, for example. I would check my spelling, grammar, and things like that, but you have to balance it. You have to get that balance right.
  • 19:13 Aaron: I was going over a blog post with a friend the other day. I was putting in headlines, doing bold text, breaking up paragraphs, and all that stuff. There’s something nice about knowing how to format a blog post well, but also having a structure to it—putting a takeaway first, but also having a description of the value. People don’t want to read a wall of text. I see that on Facebook a lot.
  • 19:41 Good formatting makes your writing easier to read, and it makes the impact stronger. At the same time, you have to find that balance. Don’t be one of those people who spends 12 hours on a 600 word blog post or a 20 minute podcast. You’re not getting a good return.
  • 20:03 Martine: Definitely. Audio and written work are similar like that.

3. Show Notes

  • 20:13 Aaron: How do you do your show notes?
  • 20:15 Martine: I’ve just recently changed my approach to show notes. In part, I was inspired by your podcast and other podcasts on the network. Previously, I would just put a bunch of links in the blog post associated with the particular episode. Now, I pretty much do a transcript. From an SEO point of view, that’s going to be much more valuable. I really appreciate the show notes from your episodes that you put out.
  • 20:48 The fact that I can just have a look and look at a time stamp and find what I want is great. I use dictation software. I use Dragon Dictate, and I put the audio through that. Dragon Dictate doesn’t pick up any punctuation, but I’m a quick editor, so it saves me quite a bit of time.
  • 21:10 Aaron: That’s fantastic. Dragon Dictate. What is that, a $100 or $200 Mac app?
  • 21:17 Martine: Yes. It is an investment. I do quite a bit of writing, so I justified it by saying that I’m going to learn how to dictate articles that I write. I haven’t gotten there yet.
  • 21:29 Aaron: I know David Sparks, from the Mac Power Users Podcast, one of my favorite podcasts, raves about Dragon Dictate, dictation, and writing. I’ve been meaning to do it for a while. I need to get into that. I need to get one of those headsets, so I can pace around my bedroom and talk.
  • 21:52 Martine: I think you need to invest some time in training Dragon how to recognize the way you speak, the way you write, and that sort of thing, but it’s worth the time investment.
  • 22:05 Aaron: Excellent. In the checklist here, you’ve got one sentence summary, format subheadings with H1 and all that, add hyperlinks, and copy show notes across to WordPress using Wordable. What is Wordable?
  • 22:22 Martine: Wordable is a web based app, and at the touch of a button, you can take something from your Google Drive and send it straight to a draft post in WordPress.
  • 22:33 Aaron: Wow, dang! That’s really awesome.
  • 22:37 Martine: It’s pretty cool. It used to be called Postable, but it has changed its name recently.

4. Create Images for Social Media

  • 22:49 Aaron: You make some images for your podcast using Canva. What is Canva?
  • 22:57 Martine: Canva is a really nice desktop publishing type web-based platform, which I love. I used to make everything in Photoshop. I’m quite an advanced Photoshop user, but now I do everything in Canva. It’s so easy. I really recommend it.
  • 23:15 Aaron: They’ve got a really nice website.
  • 23:28 Martine: It’s very flexible. You don’t have to use the templates in the system. You can make anything from scratch, but there’s something else that I really like. You know how all of your social media images are different sizes? For example, tall images work well on Pinterest, that kind of thing. The correct dimensions are automatically in Canva, so you don’t have to check the sizes all the time.
  • 23:53 Aaron: Wow, that’s helpful.
  • 23:55 Martine: It’s really cool. It’s a huge time-saver. I’ve just recently upgraded. It’s a free platform, but I’ve upgraded to Canva for work, which is probably $10 a month. It’s got even more features, and I absolutely love it.

Canva is a great platform, particularly if you’re not very design or creatively skilled.

  • 24:17 Aaron: Absolutely. Now I’m wondering if I could make podcast artwork inside of here.
  • 24:23 Martine: I’m sure you could.
  • 24:23 Aaron: That would be really useful. Listener, if you’ve been wanting to get into graphic design but you don’t have the skills (it’s a hard thing to master), check out That makes  graphics for all the different platforms—Pinterest, Facebook, Google, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram… That’s awesome.
  • 24:55 Martine: Yes, so I do a variation on each show image for each platform.
  • 25:03 Aaron: Nice.

5. Upload MP3 to Podcast Hosting

  • 25:05 Aaron: Looks like you use Libsyn.
  • 25:09 Martine: I’ve always used Libsyn for my previous show, and for this one as well. I think that they’re very good at what they do. I’ve never had any problems with the service, so I’m a Libsyn girl. I get everything uploaded to Libsyn, including the thumbnail image, and I copy the show notes across, tweak a few settings in there, and it’s fairly straightforward. That’s the podcast uploaded to the host.
  • 25:35 Aaron: Awesome. I’m not going to dissuade people from checking out Libsyn, but I personally love and recommend Simplecast for hosting. Really great.

6. Create, Polish, & Publish WordPress Blog Post

  • 25:49 Martine: This is really the polishing of the blog post that’s got the episode in it. Libsyn automatically generates some code for a nice-looking audio player, so I dump that in the post. You’re not a WordPress guy, are you? You’re a Squarespace user, is that right?
  • 26:10 Aaron: I have built and used WordPress before. There are a lot of people who come to me and say, “Hey, I don’t know anything about making websites. How do I get a website up?” A lot of people will say WordPress, but I say Squarespace. Squarespace is so much easier for people who don’t want to spend a bunch of time tweaking settings or don’t have much experience with web design or development. But I’m not against WordPress (WordPress vs. Squarespace).
  • 26:33 Martine: I completely agree with you. I went from WordPress to Squarespace to WordPress, because I found that I didn’t initially have the skills to take care of my WordPress site. Squarespace was amazing for me. Now, I felt that I could go back to WordPress, because my techy skills have increased a bit. I used a number of plugins. I use Yoast just to make sure the readability and the SEO on my post are half decent.
  • 27:05 Martine: I use Click to Tweet to share the social love, and few other bits and bobs as well. I go through the check list on my blog post as well. I run it through Grammerly for my spelling, punctuation, and grammer. It’s nice. A couple of little things I like to do include putting alt tags on my images. Then I hit publish.
  • 27:28 Aaron: That’s really important. I always put alt tags on images, whenever I can. You never know.
  • 27:38 Martine: Exactly. Then, I publish! It’s time for the social sharing.

7. Share Podcast Episode on Social Media

  • 27:47 Martine: I’m a Buffer girl. What do you use for your social sharing?
  • 27:50 Aaron: I actually have a Buffer account, and I use it occasionally. If I find ten different links I want to share on Twitter, then I will schedule them in Buffer. I’ll upload them there, and there’s a nice Safari plugin that I use. But most of the time I tweet or share stuff whenever I feel like it. I don’t worry too much about scheduling, but Buffer is a nice app for scheduling tweets. Does it do other social media accounts, too?
  • 28:33 Martine: Yeah, it does Pinterest now, which is really handy—Facebook, Google+, LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. It doesn’t post directly to Instagram, but it will prompt you. You’ll get a notification on your phone to share on Instagram. I find it really useful for Twitter more than anything.
  • 28:55 Aaron: I love it for Twitter.
  • 28:57 Martine: Yeah, it’s really handy. I like to promote my podcast episode a few times. I don’t want to just do it once and have to remember to do it again. I do it four or five times over the course of a week or so, and then I’ll revive it later on. I try and change the message up in Twitter, using different hashtags and things like that, but I’m always attaching the Twitter image that I created earlier on in the list.
  • 29:23 Aaron: I like that. I need to get better about doing that. Five times! Man.
  • 29:31 Martine: Things move so quickly on Twitter.

8. Create Content Upgrade for Email List

  • 29:54 Martine: What I’m trying to do is build my email list. I offer some sort of content upgrade in the show notes for my episode, for example, the podcast checklist that we’re going through now.
  • 30:19 If I did an episode on how I go about podcasting and I refer to this checklist, then I’ll put a little button in the show notes so people can, in exchange for their email address, get my checklist.

Any way I can add more value in exchange for an email address, I’m going to do that.

  • 30:39 Aaron: Absolutely. I recently did something similar. For the first eight months my podcast was up, I had a welcome email, but I didn’t give people a good reason to sign up for my email.  Eventually, I put together a more valuable welcome email, where I shared five of the best episodes, I said hi, and I said, “Hey, if you’re struggling with anything related to podcasting, hit reply and let me know.”
  • 31:17 Recently, I put together what’s called a lead magnet (a content upgrade). I made a 10 step checklist about starting a podcast (things to know, stuff to buy, things to do) to give to people in exchange for their email address.
  • 31:49 I’ve got courses coming soon, and I would like to be able to share those with people who would be helped by them when they’re released, and email is a great way to do that. It sounds like you’re doing something similar.
  • 32:06 Martine: Yeah, definitely. From your point of view, doing a checklist relating to how you start a podcast directly targets the right sort of person for your course, so that’s a really good lead magnet for you.
  • 32:23 Aaron: What are you doing with your email list? What’s your goal for that?
  • 32:28 Martine: Great question. I want to grow it because I’m planning on putting some online courses together in the future as well. I want to help bloggers up their game with their existing blogs, doing visual things. I’m a systems girl. I love systems, so getting checklists together, streamlining your process and your approach to getting a blog post live, that sort of thing. Also, I do a bit of writing on the side as well, so it all crosses over.

9. Take Care of Extra Tasks

  • 33:07 Aaron: That’s the ten step checklist, so let me go over that one more time. It’s eight steps, really. Number nine was extra tasks, and that’s blank, so you can drop stuff in. Do you have an example of extra tasks?
  • 33:32 Martine: It might be that I want to give someone a shout out on the show. Perhaps I’ve run a giveaway and I want to announce the winner… anything that’s not routine that I need to make sure I include.
  • 33:48 Aaron: I like that. I’m also curious. Do you make a copy of this pdf every single week?
  • 33:55 Martine: Good question. No, I don’t, actually. I use Trello. Have you come across Trello before?
  • 34:01 Aaron: Oh, yeah. I love Trello.
  • 34:04 Martine: Trello is a visual project management platform, and I have this checklist in a Trello card. I copy that every time, so I do it all digitally. I made this into a pretty pdf just to share it with people.
  • 34:20 Aaron: I love that. How long do you think you spend on this every week?
  • 35:03 Martine: Let’s say I’m working on a 15 minute show. It takes me 30 minutes to record, probably including editing. I’ve got it down to a fine art now. After that, it’s a good couple of hours on show notes, social sharing, editing the text, and that sort of thing.

The whole process of putting out a podcast takes me about a morning’s work.

  • 35:33 Aaron: You do it all at once instead of breaking it up throughout the week?
  • 35:38 Martine: I do it all at once.
  • 35:39 Aaron: That’s probably best. I should do that more often. I really need to create a checklist like this.
  • 35:46 Martine: You’re very welcome to use what I’ve given you and tweak it to make it your own.
  • 35:50 Aaron: I think I will, or I’ll do something similar. People probably think that because I’ve done 71 episodes consistently every week, with the exception of sabbatical weeks, which is something my company does—take every seventh week off—people think that I’m really consistent. The truth is that I have gotten an episode out every single week, but I’m not consistent. I’m terrible at this, and there have been many times, especially in the beginning, where I would spend all day Sunday working at the last minute to get stuff out.
  • 36:25 I need to get a system together. My company has been using Asana recently, which is similar to Trello. You can make a checklist of stuff to do related to the podcast, and then duplicate it every week. You can check stuff off so you don’t have to think about it as much. That really helps. You can also set due dates. If you know that you want the show to go out by Monday, you want to have everything done by Friday afternoon, so you’re not doing stuff last minute.

Work On Your Weaknesses

  • 37:17 Aaron: I’m naturally a very disorganized person, a very scatter-brained person. Having good friends to keep you accountable and moving forward (as well as systems and checklists) can be a huge help in getting stuff out regularly.
  • 37:32 Martine: This might surprise you, but I think I’m quite a disorganized person as well. I need checklists to get done what I need to do.
  • 37:46 Aaron: It helps. I’m curious, do you happen to know your Myers-Briggs type?
  • 37:51 Martine: No, I don’t! I know what you’re talking about. I’ve never done the test, but it would be the one that likes to have check lists.
  • 38:00 Aaron: There’s a lot of them. My Myers-Briggs type is ENFP, which is a very warm, people-focused person. I enjoy talking with people, dreaming big, thinking about big ideas, and I’m terrible with details, systems, and processes.

In an effort to shore up my weaknesses, I’ve tried to focus on getting better at things I’m not good at, like systems and processes.

  • 38:35 I encourage everyone to take the Myers-Briggs test. You can learn a lot of interesting stuff about yourself.

Current Struggles

  • 43:22 Aaron: What are you struggling with with podcasting now? What would you like to improve or get better at? What are your goals?
  • 43:32 Martine: Good question. Maybe I need a little bit of help with the editing side of things. I’m looking forward to your courses. It would be really valuable to get some feedback on my sound quality, actually.
  • 44:04 Aaron: I will do that for you, just as a favor.
  • 44:06 Martine: I’d love that. Thank you.
  • 44:10 Aaron: You said “help with editing,” but what do you mean by that?
  • 44:13 Martine: I don’t really know what I’m doing. I’ve been doing this for years without a great deal of technical experience. I get feedback from my listeners saying that they’re happy with the sound, but I would like a more professional person’s feedback, someone who knows what they’re doing, someone like your good self.
  • 44:39 Aaron: I was just confused, because I separate the editing from the audio, the mixing and the mastering, in my mind. When I think of editing, I think about chopping out words and deciding what to take out and leave in.
  • 44:55 Martine: And this, sir, is because you know what you’re talking about.
  • 45:01 Aaron: I was just listening to the Systematic Podcast this morning with one of the ladies who does the She Podcasts podcast, and it was a great episode. This lady was talking about how they try not to talk too much about the gear side of things, but then they got into a whole discussion about how some people will hear someone say “mixing and mastering,” and they’ll think, “What does that mean?” They’ll try to figure it out.
  • 45:32 Some people will go, “I don’t know what that means, so someone else, please take care of that for me.” Teaching can be hard for me sometimes because I’ve been working with audio and podcasting so long, sometimes I forget what it feels like to be a beginning. It’s hard to put myself in the shoes of people who want to start podcasts but don’t know much yet. I want to explain everything simply to them and really help them get from point A, which is knowing next to nothing about any of this, to point B, which is feeling good about doing this and feeling comfortable, being able to make something that’s good.
  • 46:47 Martine: That’s the skill of teaching, isn’t it? You take something complicated and break it down in such a way that a complete newbie could follow what you’re saying. That’s the teaching skill. It’s great when someone learns because of you.
  • 47:04 Aaron: It’s so rewarding. That’s really what I aspire to, to be such a good teacher that anyone can learn and get something valuable out of it, regardless of where you are.

You can find Martine at or follow her on Twitter at @martineellis.